dc0de wrote:
Now, on IRC I have stumbled, quite by accident, onto an radically simple idea.

We can help solve our immigration problems and our homeless problem in an easy to employ, national strategy.

Send all the Homeless to Mexico.

This would be a simple solution. We could give our homeless people some food, say a week or two's worth, in surplus rucksacks, put them on greyhound busses, and ship them to mexico. The can then live in harmony with their surroundings, knowing that freezing nights, and rich people that don't give a damn, aren't in their future anymore.

They can then be a drain on the Mexican economy, much like their illegal immigrants are a drain on the US economy. This program would be a benefit to both the US and the Homeless. The homeless wouldn't have to endure any long lines for soup in the freezing cold in the winter, as there aren't lines for soup, nor is there freezing cold in Mexico... unless you go to the mountains. (hint, tell the homeless to stick to the beaches...) As well, if these ex-patriated homeless people wish to come back to the US, they learn the Mexican Presidents plan of illegally crossing the border and getting a JOB. Then, OMG, they have learned a few important things.

1. How to speak a 2nd language - immediate employment opportunity in the southern US
2. To have a work ethic. Something they couldn't learn while getting handouts in the streets of America.

I think it's high time that we fight our illegal immigration problem with (yes, I'm gonna say it), homeless illegal immigrants.

Please let me know what we should name this program...

Thanks for listening...

dc0de out...

How about we just trade them like baseball players? Most mexican workers work pretty damn hard, why not make them legal? Send mexico the place holders. Sort of like a student exchange program for keeps. They can call it the drunks for dishwashers program.

terratogen wrote:

dc0de wrote:
Now, on IRC I have stumbled, quite by accident, onto an radically simple idea.

We can help solve our immigration problems and our homeless problem in an easy to employ, national strategy.

Send all the Homeless to Mexico.

This would be a simple solution. We could give our homeless people some food, say a week or two's worth, in surplus rucksacks, put them on greyhound busses, and ship them to mexico. The can then live in harmony with their surroundings, knowing that freezing nights, and rich people that don't give a damn, aren't in their future anymore.

They can then be a drain on the Mexican economy, much like their illegal immigrants are a drain on the US economy. This program would be a benefit to both the US and the Homeless. The homeless wouldn't have to endure any long lines for soup in the freezing cold in the winter, as there aren't lines for soup, nor is there freezing cold in Mexico... unless you go to the mountains. (hint, tell the homeless to stick to the beaches...) As well, if these ex-patriated homeless people wish to come back to the US, they learn the Mexican Presidents plan of illegally crossing the border and getting a JOB. Then, OMG, they have learned a few important things.

1. How to speak a 2nd language - immediate employment opportunity in the southern US
2. To have a work ethic. Something they couldn't learn while getting handouts in the streets of America.

I think it's high time that we fight our illegal immigration problem with (yes, I'm gonna say it), homeless illegal immigrants.

Please let me know what we should name this program...

Thanks for listening...

dc0de out...

How about we just trade them like baseball players? Most mexican workers work pretty damn hard, why not make them legal? Send mexico the place holders. Sort of like a student exchange program for keeps. They can call it the drunks for dishwashers program.

What an awesome Idea!! We could even have trading cards! The Fleer company would love it!

dc0de wrote:
Now, on IRC I have stumbled, quite by accident, onto an radically simple idea.

We can help solve our immigration problems and our homeless problem in an easy to employ, national strategy.

Send all the Homeless to Mexico.

This would be a simple solution. We could give our homeless people some food, say a week or two's worth, in surplus rucksacks, put them on greyhound busses, and ship them to mexico. The can then live in harmony with their surroundings, knowing that freezing nights, and rich people that don't give a damn, aren't in their future anymore.

They can then be a drain on the Mexican economy, much like their illegal immigrants are a drain on the US economy. This program would be a benefit to both the US and the Homeless. The homeless wouldn't have to endure any long lines for soup in the freezing cold in the winter, as there aren't lines for soup, nor is there freezing cold in Mexico... unless you go to the mountains. (hint, tell the homeless to stick to the beaches...) As well, if these ex-patriated homeless people wish to come back to the US, they learn the Mexican Presidents plan of illegally crossing the border and getting a JOB. Then, OMG, they have learned a few important things.

1. How to speak a 2nd language - immediate employment opportunity in the southern US
2. To have a work ethic. Something they couldn't learn while getting handouts in the streets of America.

I think it's high time that we fight our illegal immigration problem with (yes, I'm gonna say it), homeless illegal immigrants.

Please let me know what we should name this program...

Thanks for listening...

dc0de out...

Where's Vile when you need him?

flynn23 wrote:

dc0de wrote:
Now, on IRC I have stumbled, quite by accident, onto an radically simple idea.

We can help solve our immigration problems and our homeless problem in an easy to employ, national strategy.

Send all the Homeless to Mexico.

This would be a simple solution. We could give our homeless people some food, say a week or two's worth, in surplus rucksacks, put them on greyhound busses, and ship them to mexico. The can then live in harmony with their surroundings, knowing that freezing nights, and rich people that don't give a damn, aren't in their future anymore.

They can then be a drain on the Mexican economy, much like their illegal immigrants are a drain on the US economy. This program would be a benefit to both the US and the Homeless. The homeless wouldn't have to endure any long lines for soup in the freezing cold in the winter, as there aren't lines for soup, nor is there freezing cold in Mexico... unless you go to the mountains. (hint, tell the homeless to stick to the beaches...) As well, if these ex-patriated homeless people wish to come back to the US, they learn the Mexican Presidents plan of illegally crossing the border and getting a JOB. Then, OMG, they have learned a few important things.

1. How to speak a 2nd language - immediate employment opportunity in the southern US
2. To have a work ethic. Something they couldn't learn while getting handouts in the streets of America.

I think it's high time that we fight our illegal immigration problem with (yes, I'm gonna say it), homeless illegal immigrants.

Please let me know what we should name this program...

Thanks for listening...

dc0de out...

Where's Vile when you need him?

Flynn, it's clear you are a pussy because obviously you don't see that Vile is too punk rock for our silly conversation. He has more important things to do like idolizing herion addicts and dreaming about how much ass he kicks.

dc0de wrote:

Send all the Homeless to Mexico.

They can then be a drain on the Mexican economy, much like their illegal immigrants are a drain on the US economy.

*Ahem.*

Illegal immigrants are not a drain on the economy. *bangs head on table*

They provide millions in unclaimed social security, sales taxes, and very often local and state taxes that they do not recieve back in services. (For a local example, please see the Georgia budget and policy institute's report on the issue, found here: http://www.gbpi.org/pubs/garevenue/20060119.pdf)

Oh yeah, there's also the reduced prices in housing, food, and services that comes from non-union people working in underpaid positions.

The only drain that illegal immigrants produce is on the energy of activists constantly trying to debunk the same bullshit myths propogated by bourgeois media types over and over again. (Maybe I should be sent to Mexico for a vacay.)

finethen wrote:
*Ahem.*

Illegal immigrants are not a drain on the economy. *bangs head on table*

They provide millions in unclaimed social security, sales taxes, and very often local and state taxes that they do not recieve back in services. (For a local example, please see the Georgia budget and policy institute's report on the issue, found here: http://www.gbpi.org/pubs/garevenue/20060119.pdf)

Oh yeah, there's also the reduced prices in housing, food, and services that comes from non-union people working in underpaid positions.

The only drain that illegal immigrants produce is on the energy of activists constantly trying to debunk the same bullshit myths propogated by bourgeois media types over and over again. (Maybe I should be sent to Mexico for a vacay.)

Wow, talk about propoganda...

1st, Illegal Immigrants DON'T pay Social Security, FICA, or State and Local Taxed when they are paid under the table.

2nd, Without paying for those local taxes, they have the ability to get free healthcare, their children get schooled for FREE, (very often in their native language, not english, which requires a state paid interpreter). I have a daughter that is here LEGALLY, and she can't get ENOUGH school services because the school systems are breaking under the strain of the illegal immigrant children.

3rd, don't even get me started on Unions, they are a blight on EVERY economy in the world. In my book, if you are stupid enough to let someone else do your negotiation, they you deserve what you get... and often that is NO WORK, or when you CAN work, they are striking... so don't even go there. We keep LOWERING the bar in this country to make the stupid look smarter, and it's about time that we stop doing that, and raise our education systems to match those of Japan, Europe, and India. All areas of the world with BETTER education systems than in the US.

Lastly, your use of the term 'bourgeois' to describe the media is very interesting... I have to make an assumption that your definition of the term is from the Marxist camp, instead of the original meaning of the word. And that being the case, makes your entire statement, and your viewpoint moot. If you're a marxist, you want everyone to be the same, and you just haven't realized that those of us who WORKED OUR ASSES off to get where we are, don't want to subsidize those who are too stupid or lazy to get ahead.

dc0de wrote:
Lastly, your use of the term 'bourgeois' to describe the media is very interesting... I have to make an assumption that your definition of the term is from the Marxist camp, instead of the original meaning of the word. And that being the case, makes your entire statement, and your viewpoint moot. If you're a marxist, you want everyone to be the same, and you just haven't realized that those of us who WORKED OUR ASSES off to get where we are, don't want to subsidize those who are too stupid or lazy to get ahead.

Oh boy. Viewpoints different from yours are "moot"? I better shut up then. Sounds like we disagree on a lot. Unfortunately, it sounds to me like while you were busy "working your ass off" you forgot to get an education consisting of a variety of viewpoints. (Some of which might turn out to be... different than yours.) Oh and speaking of which, here are some more:

1. Illegal immigrants do pay social security and other taxes which they don't collect. I won't argue with you further since you obviously have access to a computer and can look it up. (That study I mentioned in the last one is a good place to start.)

2. Um, where are you reading that undocumented individuals have access to healthcare? I assume that you are referring to emergency rooms. In which case, sorry, but its a human rights as well as public health issue that if someone is severely hurt and/or sick they have to be helped, regardless of their status or insurance-holding situation. (Otherwise, you would untreated disease-carrying individuals walking around infecting all those nice legal health-care holders.) But you're crazy if you think that illegals have access to "health-care" in any comprehensive way. They can't even get shitty Medicaid packages.

As for schools, the school systems are fucked because, among other reasons, the school funding systems in most states are a disaster. All children living here are entitled to an education, regardless of their parents' status, ethnicity, or tax-paying abilities. Sorry, but its the law- and its a good one. School funding systems are (mainly) based on property taxes as well as federal funding. Since both do not provide enough for either equitable or adequate education, you see a decline in the quality of education- regardless of the percentage of illegal or legal immigrants in that area. If you think kids in areas where there is little or no illegal immigration are better off, think again.

Also keep in mind that people who don't have children pay taxes for YOUR children to go to school and don't bitch about it all the time. Why? Because it is in the public interest to have a well-educated citizenry. The argument that your kids are missing out because other kids get a basic education is a cop-out and misses the point completely. You shoukd be arguing for better funding for ALL children in the U.S. (And I would agree with you on that!)

And "state-paid interpreters?" please. Many LEGAL immigrants do not have access to those even when they go to court. The most many schools have is a poorly run ESOL program and a guidance counselor who speaks spanish. That does not begin to cover the problem for LEGAL immigrants from other countries.

So what's your problem here, really? You don't like unions, marxists, people who speak other languages, what?

I agree this problem is complex and filled with propaganda on both sides. But you owe it to yourself to take a look at both sides of the arguement and realize that deportation/ fences/ a permanent lower class is not the answer to a problem that is (at least partly) the result of a hundred years of U.S. interference in Latin America. I sure don't have the solution, but I know that blind hatred and scapegoating is not it.

dc0de wrote:
Lastly, your use of the term 'bourgeois' to describe the media is very interesting... I have to make an assumption that your definition of the term is from the Marxist camp, instead of the original meaning of the word. And that being the case, makes your entire statement, and your viewpoint moot. If you're a marxist, you want everyone to be the same, and you just haven't realized that those of us who WORKED OUR ASSES off to get where we are, don't want to subsidize those who are too stupid or lazy to get ahead.

Oh boy. Viewpoints different from yours are "moot"? I better shut up then. Sounds like we disagree on a lot. Unfortunately, it sounds to me like while you were busy "working your ass off" you forgot to get an education consisting of a variety of viewpoints. (Some of which might turn out to be... different than yours.) Oh and speaking of which, here are some more:

1. Illegal immigrants do pay social security and other taxes which they don't collect. I won't argue with you further since you obviously have access to a computer and can look it up. (That study I mentioned in the last one is a good place to start.)

2. Um, where are you reading that undocumented individuals have access to healthcare? I assume that you are referring to emergency rooms. In which case, sorry, but its a human rights as well as public health issue that if someone is severely hurt and/or sick they have to be helped, regardless of their status or insurance-holding situation. (Otherwise, you would untreated disease-carrying individuals walking around infecting all those nice legal health-care holders.) But you're crazy if you think that illegals have access to "health-care" in any comprehensive way. They can't even get shitty Medicaid packages.

As for schools, the school systems are fucked because, among other reasons, the school funding systems in most states are a disaster. All children living here are entitled to an education, regardless of their parents' status, ethnicity, or tax-paying abilities. Sorry, but its the law- and its a good one. School funding systems are (mainly) based on property taxes as well as federal funding. Since both do not provide enough for either equitable or adequate education, you see a decline in the quality of education- regardless of the percentage of illegal or legal immigrants in that area. If you think kids in areas where there is little or no illegal immigration are better off, think again.

Also keep in mind that people who don't have children pay taxes for YOUR children to go to school and don't bitch about it all the time. Why? Because it is in the public interest to have a well-educated citizenry. The argument that your kids are missing out because other kids get a basic education is a cop-out and misses the point completely. You shoukd be arguing for better funding for ALL children in the U.S. (And I would agree with you on that!)

And "state-paid interpreters?" please. Many LEGAL immigrants do not have access to those even when they go to court. The most many schools have is a poorly run ESOL program and a guidance counselor who speaks spanish. That does not begin to cover the problem for LEGAL immigrants from other countries.

So what's your problem here, really? You don't like unions, marxists, people who speak other languages, what?

I agree this problem is complex and filled with propaganda on both sides. But you owe it to yourself to take a look at both sides of the arguement and realize that deportation/ fences/ a permanent lower class is not the answer to a problem that is (at least partly) the result of a hundred years of U.S. interference in Latin America. I sure don't have the solution, but I know that blind hatred and scapegoating is not it.

finethen wrote:

I agree this problem is complex and filled with propaganda on both sides. But you owe it to yourself to take a look at both sides of the arguement and realize that deportation/ fences/ a permanent lower class is not the answer to a problem that is (at least partly) the result of a hundred years of U.S. interference in Latin America. I sure don't have the solution, but I know that blind hatred and scapegoating is not it.

I read that study you are referring to. A few points:

* The study uses 2000 population numbers, but 2003 wage data. That is disingenuous and skews the numbers, leading to higher figures of purported tax payments. Say there is a hypothetical population of 100,000 illegals in 2000, earning a total of $1,000,000,000, for a total of $10,000 per capita. Wages rise over time, lets say between 2000 and 2003 there was a 12.1 % increase. the ECI numbers that are available. I understand you can't really equate the Employment Cost Index numbers with the work that illegals perform, since they are, well, undocumented and no one really knows what their realized wage increases have been over those years. But ECI numbers are a benchmark that is generally recognized so I will use them.

If you don't factor the growth of the illegal population between 2000 and 2003, in 2003 you have a total of $1,121,000,000, or $11,210 per capita. That's $1210 more per person, thus more income to reflect more purported taxes paid, just by using lower population numbers with higher wage numbers.

A more fair study would not misrepresent these figures, or at least try harder to extrapolate population data to fit more closely with the wage data time frames. Yes, these things do matter.

* The study emulates property tax payments by saying that rent payments count. I almost laughed out loud at that. Imagine if I tried to claim on my income taxes that the rent I pay right now somehow counts as a property tax payment, and I tried to itemize that on my income tax return. Complete fabrication. If there were no illegals here renting houses or apartments, those houses and apartments would be rented to someone else. Seriously, I cannot believe this was included. This one point alone is enough to make me question the entire study.

* The study states "Studies have shown numerous income tax compliance rates for that population, several ranging from 50% to 70%." They use the 50% figure. Okay, what are these studies? Without a reference, this number is just a number pulled out of thin air to me.

* They do at least mention remittances. Unfortunately, I cannot find any data about the percentage of illegal immigrant remittances versus legal. All public figures I find are an aggregate total to each country.

"Another caveat to the use of national average income is the lack of data on remittances. Studies have shown that many immigrant workers send a portion of their inc... [ Read More (0.2k in body) ]

Hijexx wrote:

A more fair study would not misrepresent these figures, or at least try harder to extrapolate population data to fit more closely with the wage data time frames. Yes, these things do matter.

Alright, we've got a full on debate going here! Excellent!

First of all, to respond to your (well-documented) qualms regarding
the study I pointed out. Not being a statistician, or even good at
math, I will have to assume that your issues with the study are good ones. I tend to take information that is given to me from trusted sources as good enough, since they are experts and I, decidedly am not. However, I believe you will find many studies, even coming from an anti-immigrant viewpoint, that back up my claim. But, for the purposes of arguement, let's say that you are correct in your assertions and we'll take your point and run with it: there is not enough data to support a claim to one side or another. I feel certain it would be similar trying to determine the net-impact of any one social group on the country.

Hijexx wrote:

This is a large point that cannot be glossed over. More research needs to be done. This is an evolving science.

Fair enough. Moving on:

Hijexx wrote:

WHAT IS SO FREAKING WRONG WITH LEGAL IMMIGRATION ANYWAY? What is so bad about wanting immigrants that wish to live in MY COUNTRY to do so legally? Yes, I understand the nice, happy ideology of, "What makes living on one part of God's green Earth legal, and another part illegal?" I'll tell you what, it's called the rule of law. We are a land of rules and laws. What you seem to be championing is anarchy or one world government, take your pick. In the meantime, we have what we have, which are many procedures and laws to emigrate. If you don't follow those, if you bypass them, you are here ILLEGALLY and you should be removed.

Needless to say, I disagree. I happened to be reading your comments yesterday, which was Holocaust memorial day. I was thinking about how during the early part of the Holocaust, thousands of Jewish immigrants were turned away from the U.S. and sent back to nazi-Europe because public opinion was widely opposed to them settling the in the U.S.

I mention this not to compare Mexico to nazi Germany, but rather to point out the well-observed fact that Americans are typically against immigration- whether for good reasons, bad reasons, or no reasons. This legality issue is covering up the fact that people just generally do not like mass movements of people moving onto what they percieve as "their land." Forgetting the fact, of course, that their own ancestors were once part of these immigrant movements long before our current immigration system was in place.

I am certainly in favor of the rule of law. In fact, I want to become a lawyer. However, when laws are unjust or simply do not w... [ Read More (0.2k in body) ]

finethen wrote:

Needless to say, I disagree. I happened to be reading your comments yesterday, which was Holocaust memorial day. I was thinking about how during the early part of the Holocaust, thousands of Jewish immigrants were turned away from the U.S. and sent back to nazi-Europe because public opinion was widely opposed to them settling the in the U.S.

The United States is a country... not a refugee camp. I feel bad for homeless people too, but i generally don't let too many live in my house (at least not lately). On many levels, immigrants who come over to work hard at shitty jobs for a better way of life seems harmless enough. But, if we're going to give people membership to this country, why the hell should we scrape the bottom of the barrel... There are plenty of educated people we can bring over who might make a noticeable improvement to this country. In a melting pot, you don't necessarily want to add too much soft metal.

terratogen wrote:

I feel bad for homeless people too, but i generally don't let too many live in my house (at least not lately).

Ummm... why does everyone keep comparing the U.S. to their house? Your house is a piece of property where you and whoever you select live together. A country is... oh wait, I'm not a fourth grade social studies teacher. We all know what a country is, right? And this country is a "democracy." Which makes is different from your house. Also differently than your house, who is let into the nation is not regulated by who you do and don't "feel bad" for. Luckily.

Additionally, why do people keep comparing homeless people to immigrants? "The bottom of the barrel?" How about the people who were brave and bold enough to cross an extremely inhospitable border, move to a new country with a new culture, language, and system, and find a job. Have you ever moved to a new CITY? Its rough, man. I wouldn't say that those peope are the 'bottom of the barrel'.

Of course, I wouldn't say that about any of my fellow human beings.

I also believe that you will find many individuals of great intelectual worth who come here legally and illegally. Some refer to it as "the brain drain."

Ummm... why does everyone keep comparing the U.S. to their house? Your house is a piece of property where you and whoever you select live together. A country is... oh wait, I'm not a fourth grade social studies teacher. We all know what a country is, right? And this country is a "democracy."

A democracy made up of citizens. You can't choose who's born here as you can't choose your family... But you can choose who crosses the border the same way you can the threshold of your families house. We can make our democracy stronger if we pick and choose than if we let just anybody in.

Additionally, why do people keep comparing homeless people to immigrants? "The bottom of the barrel?" How about the people who were brave and bold enough to cross an extremely inhospitable border, move to a new country with a new culture, language, and system, and find a job. Have you ever moved to a new CITY? Its rough, man. I wouldn't say that those peope are the 'bottom of the barrel'.

I'd rather import someone who might have a better chance of curing cancer, than someone to wash my dishes. We have more than enough people to do dishes already, we have a bottom of the barrel and it's sort of crowded there. If they've decided to cross over in some inhospitable method it's a damn shame they didn't think they'd make the grade if we were to make the choice of accepting them or not. They should save the hard work and show us why we should choose them rather than the person next to them. If they wish to come here and be a house cleaner, good for them, but it's less useful than someone who can come and teach a college course. Not a grade of humanity, but some people are more useful than others. Why should we encourage malaise?

I also believe that you will find many individuals of great intelectual worth who come here legally and illegally. Some refer to it as "the brain drain."

Great... a genius has crossed the border illegally... Now he can go home and learn to follow rules. Sorry, but if you fuck up at the threshold, you can't sleep over... I don't care how smart you think you are, you are not welcome in my family's house.

terratogen wrote:
But you can choose who crosses the border the same way you can the threshold of your families house. We can make our democracy stronger if we pick and choose than if we let just anybody in.
...........

Not a grade of humanity, but some people are more useful than others. Why should we encourage malaise?

Hmmm, reminds me of something. What was it again?

"Give me your tired.... your poor.... your, (what was it?) ...huddled masses yearning... to breathe free?"

Yeah, sounds like crap to me too. Sentimental bullshit.

From now on, only rich, smart, and sexy! In fact, why don't we make a reality show out of it? Immigrant Idol! If you don't have enough talent and appeal, its back to [insert third world country] you go!

Hmmm... kind of makes you wonder. Would your own ancestors have made it?

finethen wrote:

Hmmm, reminds me of something. What was it again?

"Give me your tired.... your poor.... your, (what was it?) ...huddles masses yearning... to breathe free?"

Yeah, sounds like crap to me too. Sentimental bullshit.

From now on, only rich, smart, and sexy! In fact, why don't we make a reality show out of it? Immigrant Idol! If you don't have enough talent and appeal, its back to [insert third world country] you go!

Hmmm... kind of makes you wonder. Would your own ancestors have made it?

How about people can become American by raising their hands and declaring it. They can mail in their votes from all over the world! Everywhere, people can become Americans because THEY say so. They can make American soil happen magically by a three foot aura. We could potentially take over the world peacefully! It would be a great idea if it weren't so miserably retarded. The tired and poor should be the exception, not the rule and there should be a solid standard for this.

Ancestry is moot if someone is born into the same family. Adopting should be at the option of the family, not the other way around. We can help out the needy as well as improve ourselves. But who these people are should not be determined by default. You shouldn't be able to earn rights to this country by cheating to get them.

finethen wrote:

Alright, we've got a full on debate going here! Excellent!

First of all, to respond to your (well-documented) qualms regarding
the study I pointed out. Not being a statistician, or even good at
math, I will have to assume that your issues with the study are good ones. I tend to take information that is given to me from trusted sources as good enough, since they are experts and I, decidedly am not.

Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously, if you rent, try itemizing a portion of your rent on your income taxes as a property tax payment. That is what they are trying to do with their numbers. I cannot take any study seriously that does that. It is basic finance and has nothing to do with statistics. Property taxes are paid by the property owner, not the renter. Said another way, a vacant house can generate property taxes.

However, I believe you will find many studies, even coming from an anti-immigrant viewpoint, that back up my claim. But, for the purposes of arguement, let's say that you are correct in your assertions and we'll take your point and run with it: there is not enough data to support a claim to one side or another. I feel certain it would be similar trying to determine the net-impact of any one social group on the country.

I'll share a study with you. I have not vetted all of the footnotes yet, there are about 4 times as many as in the study you quoted, so I owe a more thorough combing of the statistics to this discussion. They are using a 55% compliance rate figure, which again, is out of thin air. The report you cited used a 50% rate, so the CIS report is giving some benefit of the doubt to the illegals. I wish I could source the compliance rate somewhere. On the surface, I don't see any sleight of hand with any of the other figures though:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html

This study was written by the Center for Immigration Studies.

"The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted. "

This study uses the March 2003 CPS report from the U.S. Census Bureau as a source. Some quotes from the report:

Balance of Tax and Cost

Illegals Create Large Net Costs. The bottom portion of Table 2 adds together the total tax payments and costs illegals impose on the federal budget. When defense spending is not considered, illegal households are estimated to impose costs on the federal treasury of $6,949 a year or 58 percent of what other households received. When defense spending is included, their costs are only 46 percent those of other households. However, they pay only 28 percent as much in taxes as non-illegal households. As a result, the estimated net cost per illegal household was $2,736. Whether one sees this fiscal deficit as resulting from low tax payment... [ Read More (1.5k in body) ]

Oy, where to start. I've been locked out for two days through a cookie-related error of my own and now I'm back to face the (mariachi) music.

Hijexx wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse, but seriously, if you rent, try itemizing a portion of your rent on your income taxes as a property tax payment. ...Property taxes are paid by the property owner, not the renter. Said another way, a vacant house can generate property taxes.

By this reasoning, my friends and I do not pay property taxes either. Good to know. But I guess we still pay sales, social security and income? And I guess if they don't verify my ss card, then I would still get those taken out, I wouldn't just get a taxless check every week? And I also guess that means that every citizen I know that mows lawns (my neighbor), paints houses (old co-worker), or cleans houses (aunt) and gets paid in cash wouldn't pay any of those except sales tax? Geez, those taxless illegals. Ruining the tax-free life for the rest of us.

I'll share a study with you. ...
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalfindings.html
This study was written by the Center for Immigration Studies.

When I read this, something in my head actually went "dun dun DUN!"
Its funny that you picked a John Tanton run org, and one where I have actually met one of the contributors! (Mark Krikorian.)

CIS is one of an umbrella of anti-immigrant organizations founded and funded by John Tanton. Let me tell you how excited I am you brought him up. (First some backround reading, if you care to. Tanton: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=93 CIS and Tanton: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=72)

To make a long, white-supremacist-filled story short, Tanton and his cronies at F.A.I.R. do a great job of what you alleged I do: the good old bait and switch. You get lured in by their dislike of illegals, but then find out that, actually, they don't like legals! And more specifically, non-whites in general. They recieve $$$ from the Pioneer fund (you know, The Bell Curve?)share members with the Council of Conservative Citizens (check 'em out : http://www.cofcc.org/manifest.htm) and own a publishing house that is one of the best places to get The Camp of the Saints, a lovely book about Europe being over-run by mongrel minorities.

To hammer it in: this is why I don't trust stats from many places. When you follow the money, it gets a little scary. But anyhoo, you could come back with a rebuttal about SPLC and Morris Dees, but instead I hope we can save time and get off the numbers. (And if you don't like SPLC I actually have some ADL studies saying the same thing, let me know if you want them.)

....because no one is against LEGAL immigration here.

I know I know. But the whole "illegal" issue is such a nice gateway drug to more generalized eugenics, white su... [ Read More (0.6k in body) ]

...And lets not forget that 9/11 took place at the hands of LEGAL immigrants...

Not exactly... a few were here on expired student visas, and they had illegally obtained documents. This, in my opinion, makes them illegal.

Call me myopic... but I agree with terratogen, if you fuck up at the door, you can't stay over...

My family came to this country LEGALLY... paid taxes, worked hard, never drew unemployment, and we should allow ILLEGALS a free ride?

Fuck No... Get out, learn how to do it right, and come through the front door... and, by the way, This Country is MY country, I've served it, worked for it, have paid my taxes from the day I started working, and still believe in it... although it has issues... I still love it.

I just don't think that we should bend our laws to placate Millions of Illegal people in our country...

/me passes finethen a dollar...

go buy a clue.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out by now, my initial post that started this flame war, was a FSCKING JOKE!

By the way, if you haven't figured it out by now, my initial post that started this flame war, was a FSCKING JOKE!

And it was HILARIOUS.

Rorschach wrote:

dc0de wrote:
Lastly, your use of the term 'bourgeois' to describe the media is very interesting... I have to make an assumption that your definition of the term is from the Marxist camp, instead of the original meaning of the word. And that being the case, makes your entire statement, and your viewpoint moot. If you're a marxist, you want everyone to be the same, and you just haven't realized that those of us who WORKED OUR ASSES off to get where we are, don't want to subsidize those who are too stupid or lazy to get ahead.

Oh boy. Viewpoints different from yours are "moot"? I better shut up then. Sounds like we disagree on a lot. Unfortunately, it sounds to me like while you were busy "working your ass off" you forgot to get an education consisting of a variety of viewpoints. (Some of which might turn out to be... different than yours.) Oh and speaking of which, here are some more:

1. Illegal immigrants do pay social security and other taxes which they don't collect. I won't argue with you further since you obviously have access to a computer and can look it up. (That study I mentioned in the last one is a good place to start.)

2. Um, where are you reading that undocumented individuals have access to healthcare? I assume that you are referring to emergency rooms. In which case, sorry, but its a human rights as well as public health issue that if someone is severely hurt and/or sick they have to be helped, regardless of their status or insurance-holding situation. (Otherwise, you would untreated disease-carrying individuals walking around infecting all those nice legal health-care holders.) But you're crazy if you think that illegals have access to "health-care" in any comprehensive way. They can't even get shitty Medicaid packages.

As for schools, the school systems are fucked because, among other reasons, the school funding systems in most states are a disaster. All children living here are entitled to an education, regardless of their parents' status, ethnicity, or tax-paying abilities. Sorry, but its the law- and its a good one. School funding systems are (mainly) based on property taxes as well as federal funding. Since both do not provide enough for either equitable or adequate education, you see a decline in the quality of education- regardless of the percentage of illegal or legal immigrants in that area. If you think kids in areas where there is little or no illegal immigration are better off, think again.

Also keep in mind that people who don't have children pay taxes for YOUR children to go to school and don't bitch about it all the time. Why? Because it is in the public interest to have a well-educated citizenry. The argument that your kids are missing out because other kids get a basic education is a cop-out and misses the point completely. You shoukd be arguing for better funding for ALL children in the U.S. (And I would agree with ... [ Read More (0.3k in body) ]

dc0de wrote:
4. The government education system in this country is strained to the breaking point. If you feel that it needs more, You pay it... the 30% taxes I'm paying are more than the average US wage earner makes in a year. My children don't have paper, pencils, tape, or other "standard" supplies in school... they have to be supplied by the parents... This is outrageous... but of course, I'm sure you'll tell me that school supplies aren't the job of the schools... (they were when I went...And they are in some states, where legislation WAS passed to solve these problems years ago... such as Utah)

Oh honey.

I'm just sad that you think that immigrants caused this sorry education situation. I do feel very badly for your children, and all of the children that are getting a sub-par education because of the funding problems the U.S. has.

To explain: Most, (nearly every state's) school systems are funded in the following way. (Simplified for clarity) Federal funding provides a small amount of money per student, and property taxes from the school district pay the rest. The O.C? Fairfax County, VA? Awesome property and awesome property taxes. Hence, pretty good schools. Ben Hill county, GA? Very bad property and very bad property taxes, hence, very bad schools. (And yet, very little illegal immigration.)

When the property ain't that great, the taxes aren't very much. This organization of the system leads to a very poor and inegalitarian form of schooling. Many states have ongoing lawsuits regarding this very same question. (Please see http://www.casfg.org/ for GA's version.)

Oh yeah, and consecutive budget cuts along with punitive testing systems (NCLB) don't help either.

Alls I'm saying- bLaming a whole country's education system on a small portion of the population just doesn't make that much sense to me. All children deserve an education- its our job as adults to make that work for them. And please remember that many of these 'illegal' children did not choose to come here on their own.

However, thank you for sharing your story and I think its great that your relatives were able to come to this country and make a better life for themselves and their family.