Dementia wrote:
] ] Clothing shops and factories have been given a written
] ] order to stop producing clothes that stray from the
] ] strict female dress codes, the head of a clothing trade
] ] union in Tehran told a local newspaper.
] ]
] ] Long, shapeless black coats and head coverings have been
] ] mandatory women's wear - regardless of religion - since
] ] the country's Islamic revolution 24 years ago.
] ]
] ] However, in recent times some Iranian women have been
] ] sporting shorter, paler coats that end at the knee and
] ] hug the body.
] ]
] ] Some don colourful headscarves that allow their hair to
] ] spill out from underneath.
] ]
] ] But now dress shops have been told they have a month to
] ] clear their shelves of items that do not conform to the
] ] code.
] ]
] ] Some traders in various shopping districts in Tehran told
] ] news agency AFP they had already been raided by police.
]
] I know - I just don't understand the culture. Still, I
] consider this moronic. So your women _want_ to look beautiful,
] and you won't let them? Idiots caging birds and not only never
] letting them fly, but covering them so no one can appreciate
] their beauty.

I don't understand the culture either. And I don't have to. Clearly the attempt to conceal women’s bodies is a sign of insecurity (remember the Taliban?) "if no one can see how beautiful your woman is, its that much less likely someone will try to seduce her from you."

I don't agree with any culture that oppresses people in such a manner. In Saudi Arabia, its still legal to own slaves, and you can have your hands cut off for petty shoplifting. Adultery in many Muslim countries is an offense punishable by death - but normally only for the woman. The offending male goes free with no punishment.

This culture still lives in the dark ages in so many respects. Is it any wonder they resort to pathetic acts of terrorism (kill first, negotiate later) to try and force their out dated ideals on the rest of the world?

Will the Muslim countries PLEASE join the rest of the world in the 21’st century???

Laughing Boy

Laughing Boy wrote:

] I don't understand the culture either. And I don't have to.
] Clearly the attempt to conceal women’s bodies is a sign of
] insecurity (remember the Taliban?) "if no one can see how
] beautiful your woman is, its that much less likely someone
] will try to seduce her from you."

Perhaps, but it's their country, and they can do what they wish. Part of being a respectful democracy is being tolerant of others. Even others in which you don't understand.

] I don't agree with any culture that oppresses people in such a
] manner. In Saudi Arabia, its still legal to own slaves, and
] you can have your hands cut off for petty shoplifting.
] Adultery in many Muslim countries is an offense punishable by
] death - but normally only for the woman. The offending male
] goes free with no punishment.

This isn't entirely true. Slavery, well... that's a different story. But having your hands cut off for shoplifting isn't a bad idea. How many shoplifters are in Saudi Arabia? As for the adultery issue, the men receive just as much punishment. In fact, for a man that commits adultery with a married woman, he must restitute to the man who was offended OR face death. In many ways, death might be preferable.

You can argue that these societys are not 'free' or 'liberated', but the truth speaks loudly. They don't suffer the crime and immorality that we do. I'm not saying one is better than the other. But that each might have its place on the planet. We can all learn from eachother.

] This culture still lives in the dark ages in so many respects.
] Is it any wonder they resort to pathetic acts of terrorism
] (kill first, negotiate later) to try and force their out dated
] ideals on the rest of the world?

versus forcing our outdated ideals on the world? We are not superior by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why most of the world hates us is because we hold ourselves up as superior, when we lie, cheat, steal, and kill just like everyone else does.

] Will the Muslim countries PLEASE join the rest of the world in
] the 21’st century???

Western 'progress' isn't all it's cracked up to be. It will be interesting as traditionally 'closed' societies like China, India, Iraq, and Northeastern Africa get wired and start interacting with the west more. Hopefully they will contribute their unique perspectives to our world while advancing themselves. This might have the benefit of lifting up the whole of humanity. Don't get used to the US being the center of the universe. Enjoy it while you can. There is a lot more of the rest of the world than there is of us.

flynn23 wrote:
] Laughing Boy wrote:
]
] ] I don't understand the culture either. And I don't have to.
]
] ] Clearly the attempt to conceal women’s bodies is a sign of
] ] insecurity (remember the Taliban?) "if no one can see how
] ] beautiful your woman is, its that much less likely someone
] ] will try to seduce her from you."
]
] Perhaps, but it's their country, and they can do what they
] wish. Part of being a respectful democracy is being tolerant
] of others. Even others in which you don't understand.

Reread what you just wrote - "being tolerant of others". That is precisely my point - tolerance. I'm all about it - with the provision that those to whom we show tolerance must reciprocate that tolerance in return to others. Should we have been "tolerant" of Nazi Germany and the attempted eradication of an entire people just because we didn't "understand" Hitler’s agenda?

] ] I don't agree with any culture that oppresses people in such
] ] a
] ] manner. In Saudi Arabia, its still legal to own slaves, and
] ] you can have your hands cut off for petty shoplifting.
] ] Adultery in many Muslim countries is an offense punishable
] ] by
] ] death - but normally only for the woman. The offending male
] ] goes free with no punishment.
]
] This isn't entirely true. Slavery, well... that's a different
] story. But having your hands cut off for shoplifting isn't a
] bad idea.

By that logic, should you also have your legs cut off for jay walking? I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for crime, but COME ON - being permanently amputated at the wrist because someone stole a loaf of bread??? That sounds just a TAD severe for the given crime to me.

] How many shoplifters are in Saudi Arabia?

I don't have those figures. I'd imagine it would be a pretty low figure, but still happens I'm sure. How many states have capital punishment? Murder still happens in those states regardless of the ultimate consequence that might await a convict. Harsher penalties for a crime are not necessarily a deterrent.

] As for the
] adultery issue, the men receive just as much punishment.

I cant find the link at the moment, but I seem to recall a story where a woman was stoned to death for adultery, and the man basically went free. It may not have been Saudi Arabia, but I do recall it was in a nation that adheres to Sharia (Islamic law).

] You can argue that these societys are not 'free' or
] 'liberated', but the truth speaks loudly.

It does indeed speak loudly, but the problem is, in these states the faith driven governments determine what that "truth" is.

] They don't suffer
] the crime and immorality that we do.

Human rights abuses by the state (oppression of women and minority sects of Islam, execution by stoning, owning of slaves, etc, etc...) are in... [ Read More (0.5k in body) ]

Dementia wrote:
] ] Clothing shops and factories have been given a written
] ] order to stop producing clothes that stray from the
] ] strict female dress codes, the head of a clothing trade
] ] union in Tehran told a local newspaper.
] ]
] ] Long, shapeless black coats and head coverings have been
] ] mandatory women's wear - regardless of religion - since
] ] the country's Islamic revolution 24 years ago.
] ]
] ] However, in recent times some Iranian women have been
] ] sporting shorter, paler coats that end at the knee and
] ] hug the body.
] ]
] ] Some don colourful headscarves that allow their hair to
] ] spill out from underneath.
] ]
] ] But now dress shops have been told they have a month to
] ] clear their shelves of items that do not conform to the
] ] code.
] ]
] ] Some traders in various shopping districts in Tehran told
] ] news agency AFP they had already been raided by police.
]
--
] I know - I just don't understand the culture. Still, I
] consider this moronic. So your women _want_ to look beautiful,
] and you won't let them? Idiots caging birds and not only never
] letting them fly, but covering them so no one can appreciate
] their beauty.

I'll take a shot at an attempt to understand it. From what I understand (mostly from 3rd party academic analysises of the religious texts), that women would want to be beautiful and the men denying them this fits well with the Koran. I recall specifically from the Koran that, "There were 10 parts of [sexual] desire, of which 9 were given to women." Some detail is gone into that most women are primarily sexual tempetresses to ensnare and distract men from other better (more holy?) persuits.

I guess if you accepted this it would seem rather reasonable to want to restrict womens' clothing in the manner described.

-Virgil

Romanpoet wrote:
] I'll take a shot at an attempt to understand it. From what I
] understand (mostly from 3rd party academic analysises of the
] religious texts), that women would want to be beautiful and
] the men denying them this fits well with the Koran.

There was an NYT story recently that discussed veiling in the context marrying cousins. Most people in these societies marry within their family. If women are veiled then the only people who know what they look like are insiders - family members who might have come over for dinner. Therefore insiders don't have to compete with outsiders for their hand in marriage.

Western cultures used to do this too. The bible also requires veiling of women. However, the practice was apparently dropped because a couple of important priests decided that by forcing people to marry outside of their families would create more complex interrelationships between people and therefore make people more peaceful.