flynn23 wrote:
] Laughing Boy wrote:
]
] ] I don't understand the culture either. And I don't have to.
]
] ] Clearly the attempt to conceal women’s bodies is a sign of
] ] insecurity (remember the Taliban?) "if no one can see how
] ] beautiful your woman is, its that much less likely someone
] ] will try to seduce her from you."
]
] Perhaps, but it's their country, and they can do what they
] wish. Part of being a respectful democracy is being tolerant
] of others. Even others in which you don't understand.

Reread what you just wrote - "being tolerant of others". That is precisely my point - tolerance. I'm all about it - with the provision that those to whom we show tolerance must reciprocate that tolerance in return to others. Should we have been "tolerant" of Nazi Germany and the attempted eradication of an entire people just because we didn't "understand" Hitler’s agenda?

] ] I don't agree with any culture that oppresses people in such
] ] a
] ] manner. In Saudi Arabia, its still legal to own slaves, and
] ] you can have your hands cut off for petty shoplifting.
] ] Adultery in many Muslim countries is an offense punishable
] ] by
] ] death - but normally only for the woman. The offending male
] ] goes free with no punishment.
]
] This isn't entirely true. Slavery, well... that's a different
] story. But having your hands cut off for shoplifting isn't a
] bad idea.

By that logic, should you also have your legs cut off for jay walking? I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences for crime, but COME ON - being permanently amputated at the wrist because someone stole a loaf of bread??? That sounds just a TAD severe for the given crime to me.

] How many shoplifters are in Saudi Arabia?

I don't have those figures. I'd imagine it would be a pretty low figure, but still happens I'm sure. How many states have capital punishment? Murder still happens in those states regardless of the ultimate consequence that might await a convict. Harsher penalties for a crime are not necessarily a deterrent.

] As for the
] adultery issue, the men receive just as much punishment.

I cant find the link at the moment, but I seem to recall a story where a woman was stoned to death for adultery, and the man basically went free. It may not have been Saudi Arabia, but I do recall it was in a nation that adheres to Sharia (Islamic law).

] You can argue that these societys are not 'free' or
] 'liberated', but the truth speaks loudly.

It does indeed speak loudly, but the problem is, in these states the faith driven governments determine what that "truth" is.

] They don't suffer
] the crime and immorality that we do.

Human rights abuses by the state (oppression of women and minority sects of Islam, execution by stoning, owning of slaves, etc, etc...) are in some way morally sound???

] I'm not saying one is
] better than the other. But that each might have its place on
] the planet. We can all learn from eachother.

I don't have anything to learn from intolerant cultures that want to oppress their own people, or whom would just as soon kill me because I don't subscribe to their tunnel vision religious ideals. When they decide to join the rest of the modern world; recognize the err of their ways and show some indifference to people, then we'll talk and learn from each other.

] ] This culture still lives in the dark ages in so many
] ] respects.
] ] Is it any wonder they resort to pathetic acts of terrorism
] ] (kill first, negotiate later) to try and force their out
] ] dated
] ] ideals on the rest of the world?

] versus forcing our outdated ideals on the world?

I'm never in favor of imposing our ideals on the rest of the world by force. However - countries that do not respect basic human rights (and you can argue that it goes on here as well, but to no degree like it does in said cultures) IMO should not enjoy any benefits beyond simple humanitarian aid from the USA. We certainly should not be granting "most favored nation trade status" to countries like china until human rights reforms are put in place and into practice. And we shouldn’t be importing oil from Arab countries that don’t respect human rights either, but as we depend on that oil, we have little choice in the matter.

] We are not
] superior by any stretch of the imagination.

Never said we were.

] The reason why
] most of the world hates us is because we hold ourselves up as
] superior, when we lie, cheat, steal, and kill just like
] everyone else does.

That’s the short answer, but its more complex then that. It cannot be denied that a good part of it has to do with resentment that our society has flourished and basically stand unchallenged as the sole super power today. And yes - many other cultures also resent the strides we have made and continue to make in equal rights because it gives their own citizens "dangerous ideas".

] ] Will the Muslim countries PLEASE join the rest of the world
] ] in
] ] the 21’st century???
]
] Western 'progress' isn't all it's cracked up to be.

No - it isn't. Our system has MANY flaws, but fewer then any other system I've seen to date. If anyone has a better plan for progress, I'd love to hear about it.

] It will be
] interesting as traditionally 'closed' societies like China,
] India, Iraq, and Northeastern Africa get wired and start
] interacting with the west more. Hopefully they will contribute
] their unique perspectives to our world while advancing
] themselves. This might have the benefit of lifting up the
] whole of humanity.

Sure it will. But only if their citizens are granted unfettered access to the net. When censorship comes into play, these people will not be able to speak their true mind. I've been involved in many discussions with Chinese citizens. These people clearly are not expressing their true opinions (unless it is anti-USA) as anything remotely critical of their own government can land them in jail.

] Don't get used to the US being the center
] of the universe. Enjoy it while you can. There is a lot more
] of the rest of the world than there is of us.

Like it or not, someone is going to assume the roll of the dominant force in the world. I’m glad it’s the USA in that position and not China or Russia.

But I do agree with you on one thing - we need to be VERY careful of where we step in the world. I've heard calls from lawmakers now to "destabilize" the government in Iran. I'm not sure if this is a serious call or just a bluff (Iran sure did arrest those terror suspects pretty quickly after that statement was issued), but with rogue nations joining the nuclear club, we are on a very slippery slope.

Laughing Boy

RE: BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Iran tells women to button up