Decius wrote:
] ] "There is something wrong with the principle of
] ] neutrality," said Scalia, considered among the court's
] ] staunchest conservatives. Neutrality as envisioned by the
] ] founding fathers, Scalia said, "is not neutrality between
] ] religiousness and nonreligiousness; it is between
] ] denominations of religion."
]
] Our founding fathers and other great national leaders were
] brilliant men who developed powerful ideas about how to build
] a successful society. However, you have to put them in a
] context. Abraham Lincoln, for example, would be viewed as a
] contemptible bigot were he alive today, but that does not mean
] that we should not honor him and the value of his ideas. What
] Scalia misses is that the society which existed in 1776 is not
] the same society which exists today, and in fact it was a
] great deal less mature.

good point, and one that gets lost whenever a discussion turns to "the founding fathers". People forget that many of the things that make our society what it is today simply did not exist in those times. Even things that people think are 'traditional' or 'American values' - things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Thanksgiving holiday, cowboys, and on and on and on. The world was a very different place and America itself was wretched and untamed and unrefined. Just ask any Native American.

] The valuable idea here is that the government should not get
] involved in the task of dictating religious beliefs or
] doctrine. However, in the context of the late 1700's all of
] the white people in America practiced some form of
] Christianity or Judaism. Other religions were certainly
] practiced by people who weren't white, but this mattered
] little in an institutionally racist society. So, in
] that context, references to God were not understood to fall
] into the scope of dictating religious doctrine. People were
] simply not aware of an example of a way of thinking which did
] not include God.

I see your point, but your foundation is incorrect. While many whites did practice some form of monotheism, that was not exclusive. You could even argue whether it was a majority or not. Some of the earliest pilgrims here were Druidic or other types of Pagans. That was the whole reason why they came here - to get away from the Church. That was in addition to people who were practicing Christianity from a more 'pure' perspective. Their beliefs were based upon Bible principals, and not in regard to the Church's laws and hierarchy. In effect, they were fundamentalists who were trying to escape from the corruption of the Church on government and society that was ubiquitous in Europe at the time. The other major demographic that early America drew (and still does) is opportunists - that is people who worship nothing but themselves and wealth. Free thin... [ Read More (1.1k in body) ]

flynn23 wrote:
] things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Thanksgiving holiday,
] cowboys, and on and on and on.

Well, the Thanksgiving holiday is at least as old as the republic, but you are right about the rest...

] I see your point, but your foundation is incorrect. While many
] whites did practice some form of monotheism, that was not
] exclusive. You could even argue whether it was a majority or
] not. Some of the earliest pilgrims here were Druidic or other
] types of Pagans. That was the whole reason why they came here
] - to get away from the Church.

Citation?

] This might be the case, and the Bush administration quacks
] like a duck, smells like a duck, and walks like a duck. So it
] may be that America is heading for a heavily influenced
] Judeo-Christian administration. However, this is unsustainable
] in today's global context and I think it will be undone and
] quite quickly. But that's a topic for another thread.

Hrm. My cynical opinion is that you can be very abrasive for a very long time as long as you have all the money. The bad decisions you'll make as a fundamentalist state (such as training a generation of children to reject the scientific method) can take quite some time to come home to roost.

] I continue to be impressed with
] how America has 'sucked it up' and gotten on with itself in
] light of the election.

I think people are tired. They've been fighting for some time. Now they want to relax and get on with their lives. There is nothing they can do about it for at least 2 years.

Decius wrote:
] flynn23 wrote:
] ] things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Thanksgiving
] holiday,
] ] cowboys, and on and on and on.
]
] Well, the Thanksgiving holiday is at least as old as the
] republic, but you are right about the rest...

Not necessarily. It was in the very late 1800's that it was made a national holiday, having been a sporadic regional occurance before that. And typically didn't get celebrated independantly of generic "harvest" celebrations, which are as old as humanity itself. Most of what we think of as the "story" of Thanksgiving is wrong, and horribly sanitized for the teaching of young elementary schoolers. A great viewpoint:

http://www.2020tech.com/thanks/temp.html

] ] I see your point, but your foundation is incorrect. While
] many
] ] whites did practice some form of monotheism, that was not
] ] exclusive. You could even argue whether it was a majority or
]
] ] not. Some of the earliest pilgrims here were Druidic or
] other
] ] types of Pagans. That was the whole reason why they came
] here
] ] - to get away from the Church.
]
] Citation?

I can't pull up a link right now, but I've read several books (remember those?) that are usually accounts of early racial migrations (Polish, German, Irish, etc) into the region, and of course my own upbringing in Michigan and its history. Whites were here in America for years before the Pilgrims landed, as fur traders, trappers, and explorers. Most of those people were outcasts of societies from whereever they hailed from. Those that settled here did so because they had a bond with the Natives, particularly around Paganism. Afterall, the word Pagan actually means "country dweller". And most Pagans would be very in tune with Native American religions, which sought balance with the environment.

Speaking of just the Polish migration into the US, they were some of the earliest engineers, skilled labor, and merchants brought with the Pilgrims to help them build the colonies. Many of them were here because of persecution from the Church in native Poland. A good book on that subject is "My Name Is Million", which details a lot of this out.

Another fact to consider is that Christianity itself has morphed and distorted due to the numerous sects with which it 'converted'. So Druidic teachings, Norse teachings, Germanic teachings... all have found their way into modern Christianity by way of crusades and compromises. All of the major Christian holidays are rooted in Pagan celebrations and teachings (Easter, Christmans, etc). Those that were on the fringes of these are likely to have sought a place where they could practice their less fundamentalist ways without persecution of greater society in Europe.

] ] This might be the case, and the Bush administration quacks
] ] like a duck, smells like a duck, and walks like a duck. So
] it
] ]... [ Read More (0.3k in body) ]

flynn23 wrote:
] Decius wrote:
] ] flynn23 wrote:
] ] ] things like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Thanksgiving
] ] holiday,
] ] ] cowboys, and on and on and on.
] ]
] ] Well, the Thanksgiving holiday is at least as old as the
] ] republic, but you are right about the rest...
]
] Not necessarily. It was in the very late 1800's that it was
] made a national holiday, having been a sporadic regional
] occurance before that.

I was wrong. I had read several instances of early Presidents (including pre-constitution ones) setting national Thanksgivings, but it wasn't something that occured every year under Lincoln was President.

] I can't pull up a link right now, but I've read several books
] (remember those?)

Huh? :)