John Kerry is this country's intellect. George Bush is our heart.

Kerry clearly won the debate. He made strong points that Bush couldn't counter. Bush had his moments too, but they were fewer. Bush did not build the coalition that he said he was going to build. Bush did not use war as a last resort. With we did win concessions from Lybia, and possibly Syria, through the invasion of Iraq, Iran is moving forward with their nuke plan.

Bush was defensive, and in a sense you have to identify with his position. I don't like a number of his policies. I don't want to see him win. But he is a sitting President, and he may have been goofing off before 9/11, but he hasn't since. He kept repeating that its a hard job. It is a hard job. Most countries leaders are either corrupt enough to have opulent wealth and pleasure as a result of their position, or lucky enough to be running some place like Canada that basically just needs maintenance and isn't at the center of World affairs. Bush has worked his ass off and he has fought hard, and all he gets in return is jeers from his political enemies. At the end of the day you want the American people to show you that they appreciate it. Its impossible to simultaneously honor someone's service to his country while you're firing him, and that is a shame on some level.

Kerry is right, in a moral sense, that we need more people in Iraq to secure the country. If we really care about Iraq, we need to secure it. At the same time, the costs and risks that this entails are staggering. Are we really prepared for this commitment? This is the draft.

John Edwards sounds like a fucking redneck. In a sense he is the Dem's dark horse. All of the Democrats who've won elections in the past half century have been Southerners. The South's Democratic block is the thing that has kept this country from completely turning into an Urban vs. Rural culture war. Southerners like to vote for Southerners, even if they are Democrats, because Southern is still a cultural identity that is stronger then urban or rural. Furthermore, in the South the local Republicans have traditionally been the guys with holes in their sheets. No one wants to vote for a racist.

If the Republicans can pull the South, they win. Thats why they support the fundamentalists. Christian is a more important cultural identity then Southern or Republican. If they can connect with it over the next few cycles they'll control the country, and it will become a very uncomfortable place for multiculturalist intellectuals from the big city.

Some have argued that because Kerry is a Northerner, and Bush is from Texas, that Kerry really doesn't have a prayer. The visibility of Edwards during these debates might change that. Thats really Kerry's best hope.

K is right that the Dems need to think more strategically. To put a point on it, the Dems will loose the South over the next few years as the Republicans work to extend their concep... [ Read More (0.1k in body) ]

k wrote:
] John Kerry is this country's intellect. George Bush is our
] heart.
]
Intellect my ass. Just because he is a better liar than Bush doesn't make him an intellectual. It makes him a democrat.

] Kerry is right, in a moral sense, that we need more people in
] Iraq to secure the country.

Shades of Lyndon B. Johnson. I guess we can expect twenty thousand dead and countless more wounded and crippled by the time some future president pulls us out as an election year gesture.

If we really care about Iraq, we
] need to secure it. At the same time, the costs and risks that
] this entails are staggering. Are we really prepared for this
] commitment? This is the draft.

Yuppers. Every democrat votes to put our children in harms way. At least Bush deployed people who WANTED to reap the benefits of out military during peacetime and then bitched about giving us something back when they were needed. Momma's, don't let your babies grow up to be soldiers! Work hard so your rotten progeny can go to college.

]
] John Edwards sounds like a fucking redneck.

And you seem like a typical smarmy elitist yankee liberal. This is the most worthless veiw on the debate I have seen yet. K, give it up and have the decency to post a link to a true pundit who has more than a rudimentary view of political science.

If they can connect with [the religious right] over the next few cycles they'll
] control the country, and it will become a very uncomfortable
] place for multiculturalist intellectuals from the big city.

You call 'em multi-culturalist intellectuals. I call them thought-police as oppressive and offensive as any of the so-called religious right. What political correctness has done to shut down about half of the brain of our collective consciousness is staggering and it seems there is little hope of going back. By the way, there are less of these "multi-culturalist intellectuals from the big city" than there are those who actually make our nation great: the working class. It is upon their backs that the nation functions and yet, the "tolerant" multi-cultural intellectuals (which means white guilt filtered through isolationist elitism, a distinct product of upper class WASPS) do nothing but attack the sensibilities of those who simply want to work hard to make America great. Your statement is offensive.

The visibility of Edwards during these debates might change that.
] Thats really Kerry's best hope.

Well, Edwards will have to do something about his stupidity, his past as a scumbag trial lawyer and that herpe on his lip.

] People with pickup trucks vote for Bush. The Dems need to figure ]out what core cultural identities they are going to connect with. ]The intellectual elite is not large enough to win elections on its
]own. They need to tie themselves to core American identities.

Isn't it ... [ Read More (0.2k in body) ]

Both you and Jello apparently confused my commentary with K's. K rerecommended my original post with his comments at the bottom in the [] brackes he usually uses.

So, just so we're clear:

] ] John Edwards sounds like a fucking redneck.
]
] And you seem like a typical smarmy elitist yankee liberal.
] This is the most worthless veiw on the debate I have seen yet.
] K, give it up and have the decency to post a link to a true
] pundit who has more than a rudimentary view of political
] science.

I said that, not K. And I can't really take credit for the analysis of the South's impact on the Democratic party, if thats what you're calling a "rudimentary view of political science." That came from Stratfor.

] You call 'em multi-culturalist intellectuals. I call them
] thought-police as oppressive and offensive as any of the
] so-called religious right. What political correctness has
] done to shut down about half of the brain of our collective
] consciousness is staggering and it seems there is little hope
] of going back.

I don't give a fuck about political correctness.

] It is upon their backs that the nation functions and
] yet, the "tolerant" multi-cultural intellectuals (which means
] white guilt filtered through isolationist elitism, a distinct
] product of upper class WASPS) do nothing but attack the
] sensibilities of those who simply want to work hard to make
] America great. Your statement is offensive.

If only because you don't understand it. I'm not a protestant. I don't have any "white guilt." I'm personally pissed off that they want to put the ten commandments on court houses because they are trying to tell me how I'm allowed to think about how the universe works.

When I say this country will become uncomfortable for multi-cultural intellectuals, what I mean is that this place will be uncomfortable for me, because I'm not an evangelical christian nor was I born in this country. These people want to setup the government such that you are constantly reminded by the government that you ought to be an evangelical christian, and you're going to behave as if you were whether you like it or not, because everything else will be illegal.

In '96 these people passed a federal law which provided prison sentences and 6 figure fines for anyone who said the word FUCK on the Internet. If it wasn't declared unconstitutional these screwball "activist judges" that the right is so furious about the following sentence would be illegal: Those fucking evangelicals can tell me what I can write about and think about when they pry my fucking keyboard from my cold, dead fucking fingers.

Is that offensive enough for you?

] Isn't it ironic that the poor vote for Republicans while a
] self-proclaimed class of intellectuals vote for allegedly
] poor-fostering Democrats?

Yes! Of course it is! And no, I'm not a democrat. But I'm voting for Kerry.

] You are merely a product of your professors. They
] must not have been that great, eh?

All my college classes were about calculus.

Decius wrote:
] Both you and Jello apparently confused my commentary with K's.
] K rerecommended my original post with his comments at the
] bottom in the [] brackes he usually uses.

Thanks for the clarification.
]
] If only because you don't understand it. I'm not a protestant.
] I don't have any "white guilt." I'm personally pissed
] off that they want to put the ten commandments on court houses
] because they are trying to tell me how I'm allowed to
] think about how the universe works.

You realize that you could always move to afghanistan. No ten commandments on the court houses. I agree that the government should make no rule respecting any religion, but atheists are in the minority and our country has a history of "majority rules, minority rights." I believe in nothing spiritual whatsoever, but I'll look past the ten commandments if that's what most people want. A minority like myself should always understand where they stand in a democracy. Now, at the same time, a student is not allowed to pray in a public school, yet two gay students can hold hands while walking through the hall. The problem here is not the acceptance of gays, but rather the oppression of religious students. Freedom of religion needs to be a precept of our nation. The christians will allow the jews, buddhists, muslims and even the devil worshippers to exist in the USA. Try being Christian under the Taliban! A small amount of godless folks like me are doing all we can to harass christians. This is contemptable.

]
] When I say this country will become uncomfortable for
] multi-cultural intellectuals, what I mean is that this place
] will be uncomfortable for me,

You have a seriously high opinion of yourself. I would call you an armchair intellectual, myself. As for the multi-cultural part, what does that mean? Do you have a black friend or something?

because I'm not an evangelical
] christian nor was I born in this country.

If you weren't born in the country, then why don't you go back to where you are from until you can learn about the demographics of our nation?

Those fucking
] evangelicals can tell me what I can write about and think
] about when they pry my fucking keyboard from my cold, dead
] fucking fingers.
]
] Is that offensive enough for you?

No, in fact. It seems merely childish and a bit trite. However, you asked for my opinion. I offered.
]
] ] Isn't it ironic that the poor vote for Republicans while a
] ] self-proclaimed class of intellectuals vote for allegedly
] ] poor-fostering Democrats?
]
] Yes! Of course it is! And no, I'm not a democrat. But I'm
] voting for Kerry.

Congrats on sending kids into the draft! You are a total asshole and I hope someone you love gets drafted and killed! You have no brain and no soul, tom.

] All my college classes were about calculus.

Stick to calc, buddy. Your political views will cause death and dismay.

Vile wrote:
] Now, at the same
] time, a student is not allowed to pray in a public school, yet
] two gay students can hold hands while walking through the
] hall. The problem here is not the acceptance of gays, but
] rather the oppression of religious students.

Students are allowed to pray in public school. What right wing propaganda have you been reading? As I recall, a great deal of praying went on in school, before tests in particular. Religious groups and expressions are perfectly legal as long as they aren't organized by the administration or manditory. The right wants a constitutional amendment that will allow for organized prayer in school.

Decius Wrote:

] Students are allowed to pray in public school. What right wing
] propaganda have you been reading?

None. Rather, I have parents who are educators and they feel that prayer in public schools should be barred since you would have to accomodate children of all religions. Picture an english class with catholics clutching rosary beads doing novenas, jews wailing at the chalk board on the wall, Buddhists meditating on the desks, Muslims throwing down a rug on the floor and bowing to Mecca, Mormons hooking up with three cheerleaders each at once, Kali Yuga doing ritual scarification, Santerians cutting the heads off of chickens, Voodoo practitioners sticking pins in dolls, American Indians doing a raindance around the teacher's desk, the unitarians could do whatever the hell they do, the satanists could perform a black mass, and the born agains could prostelatyze to all of them.
That would sure be a zoo. I think it would be great! A great lesson in diversity, in fact. Actually, that should be a mandatory class each day. Atheists could take a second lunch or a study hall or just sit there and watch these people raise the roof with faith.

As I recall, a great deal of
] praying went on in school, before tests in particular.

While in Kindergarten, I prayed before a quiz. I was sent to the principal's office for doing this. Yes, it would be a shame for prayer to be forced on students (although the scenario I described earlier does seem like a great deal of fun), but it wouldn't kill anyone to be tolerant of the concept and expression of religious faith. Today, in some school districts, prayer is verbotent. What's humorous is that the same people who want us to tolerate Heather's two mommies would not show tolerance towards religious faith or differing social ideologies. That stinks of hypocrisy. I always figured that they weren't merely looking for tolerance. If that were the case, then we would be asked to tolerate the Ku Klux Klan, conservatives, bestialists, necrophiliacs, cult leaders (Koresh was killed by a liberal administration), fetuses, whalers, and the religious folks who make up the backbone of our nation.

] Religious groups and expressions are perfectly legal as long
] as they aren't organized by the administration or manditory.
] The right wants a constitutional amendment that will allow for
] organized prayer in school.

Why not? There's organized sports, aren't there? If you don't believe in prayer, then don't participate. If it's organized, then I don't see this as anything other than a case of the school being free to do what it would like. Many public universities have taken taxpayer dollars to have Michael Moore speak to the tune of over $30,000 per engagement. At this point, ideologies are the new religion. If it is offensive to have an organized prayer, then why is it not offensive to have a divisive blowhard like Moore take more money than many make in a year breaking their backs so that the fat bastard can stand there and further his hateful agenda? It's about the same as allowing Pat Buchanan to come talk at your school about how lazy minorities are. It wouldn't happen. But I believe all of these things are valuable teaching tools in that to experience something first hand is to learn about it better than a simple glossing over of a fact of american life in some text book. This is history in the making, prayer is a concept and both are useful educational tools. If one wishes to abstain, they should have that perogative.

] Why not? There's organized sports, aren't there? If you
] don't believe in prayer, then don't participate. If it's
] organized, then I don't see this as anything other than a case
] of the school being free to do what it would like.

Because public schools are an extension of the state. An organized religious ceremony in a public school is a state organized religious ceremony. The state is forbidden by the constitution from organizing religious ceremonies. The reason is that once the state enters the business of religion, two problems inevitably arise:

1. People who have a particular faith are given preference to those who do not in matters of justice. This is exactly the subtext of the interest in putting the 10 commandments in court houses. Justice cannot occur in such a court.

2. The state begins to govern through religious edict rather then through law. Religious edicts cannot be questioned. Either you agree with God or you're wrong. If you have laws that cannot be questioned by the citizens then you have a government which cannot be democratic because the people no longer have the ability to dissent. Inevitably this leads to corruption.

k wrote:
] John Kerry is this country's intellect. George Bush is our
] heart.
]
] Kerry clearly won the debate. He made strong points that Bush
] couldn't counter. Bush had his moments too, but they were
] fewer. Bush did not build the coalition that he said he was
] going to build. Bush did not use war as a last resort. With we
] did win concessions from Lybia, and possibly Syria, through
] the invasion of Iraq, Iran is moving forward with their nuke
] plan.
]
] Bush was defensive, and in a sense you have to identify with
] his position. I don't like a number of his policies. I don't
] want to see him win. But he is a sitting President, and he may
] have been goofing off before 9/11, but he hasn't since. He
] kept repeating that its a hard job. It is a hard job. Most
] countries leaders are either corrupt enough to have opulent
] wealth and pleasure as a result of their position, or lucky
] enough to be running some place like Canada that basically
] just needs maintenance and isn't at the center of World
] affairs. Bush has worked his ass off and he has fought hard,
] and all he gets in return is jeers from his political enemies.
] At the end of the day you want the American people to show you
] that they appreciate it. Its impossible to simultaneously
] honor someone's service to his country while you're firing
] him, and that is a shame on some level.
]
] Kerry is right, in a moral sense, that we need more people in
] Iraq to secure the country. If we really care about Iraq, we
] need to secure it. At the same time, the costs and risks that
] this entails are staggering. Are we really prepared for this
] commitment? This is the draft.
]
] John Edwards sounds like a fucking redneck. In a sense he is
] the Dem's dark horse. All of the Democrats who've won
] elections in the past half century have been Southerners. The
] South's Democratic block is the thing that has kept this
] country from completely turning into an Urban vs. Rural
] culture war. Southerners like to vote for Southerners, even if
] they are Democrats, because Southern is still a cultural
] identity that is stronger then urban or rural. Furthermore, in
] the South the local Republicans have traditionally been the
] guys with holes in their sheets. No one wants to vote for a
] racist.
]
] If the Republicans can pull the South, they win. Thats why
] they support the fundamentalists. Christian is a more
] important cultural identity then Southern or Republican. If
] they can connect with it over the next few cycles they'll
] control the country, and it will become a very uncomfortable
] place for multiculturalist intellectuals from the big city.
]
] Some have argued that because Kerry is a Northerner, and ... [ Read More (0.3k in body) ]