specialK wrote:
] Had this been an Israeli group that killed this Palestinian
] teenager, it would have been all over the news.

Well, you'll be happy to know NYT coverage is on Google News right now.

] Not only that, but is anyone else alarmed that Palestinians
] are setting up weapons in civilian areas? Where's the outrage??

Well, both news reports that I've read about this claimed that the family wanted to prevent the rock launcher from being set up because the IDF has a policy of launching rocket attacks on civilian homes who are thought to have collaborated with militants and they felt that if they couldn't stop the rocket launcher from being setup they might be the target of such an attack.

If you are to be outraged that the militans put civilians at risk you ought to be equally outraged that the IDF directly targets those civilians as a result.

I have a hard time seeing "good guys" here. Neither the 15 year old boy nor his family nor the militants nor the IDF seem to be on particularly sound moral footing.

Of course, thats why these stories don't get better coverage. Someone is getting killed in this conflict every time you turn around, and only the most radical, and those with vested interests, feel particularly sympathetic to one side.

Everyone else just kind of turns away in disgust. What is there to say on this occaison that hasn't been said 1000 times before. One hopes that someday something remotely resembling progress will actually happen, but no one believes it for a second.

There are two paths to peace. One is that a particular side is completly demoralized and defeated, and the other is that moderates within each society begin holding back the radicals on their own side, rather then focusing on all the bad stuff the other side is doing.

Neither seems likely here. One might see reflections of the U.S. WOT here. The later process, of moderate relaxation of tensions, is particularly difficult when one seeks revenge. Would you be willing to let Bin Lauden go if all of the militant Islamists agreed to a truce?

] If you are to be outraged that the militans put civilians at
] risk you ought to be equally outraged that the IDF directly
] targets those civilians as a result.

Actually, it is well-documented and entirely false that the IDF TARGETS civilians of any sort. For example, Sheikh Yassin, the proven murdered of many Israelis, the mastermind of dozens of attacks, and the founder and now ex-leader of a terrorist organization fully dedicated to killing Jews (Hamas)was in Israel's sites on many occasions. They had him in their crosshairs many a time. And they did not fire the missiles because there were civilians around him. They waited, and had to wait through many more attacks on Israelis planned by him, attacks that killed Israeli civilians, and the only reason they waited was so that they did not kill the civilians around him.

Do you remember recently when those Israeli body parts got paraded througout the streets and Palestinians were playing soccer ball with a soldier's head? The reason that even had the chance to happen
was that Israel knew of 6 weapons and munitions shops. And they could have easily taken them out from the air, with missiles, they could have razed the entire city. However, an attack on 6 buildings, of that caliber, would have resulted in many civilian casualties. Instead of risking Palestinian civilians from losing their lives, they put infantry (ground troops) into the area
which is 1000 times more risky to their own soldiers' lives.

The Israeli Army does not make it a practice to fire rockets on civilian houses who are thought to have collaborated with the militants. They have a stated and practiced policy of blowing up the houses of terrorists that have just committed murderous acts, in order to discourage more palestinians from taking up that disgusting job. By comparison, if you are a Palestinian who is "suspected" of collaborating with the Israelis, you are executed promptly.

I would dispute that it's not easy to see who the good guys are here. And it is easy to see that Israel has offered many peace agreements and their plan to pull out of the Gaza has been met with an actual INCREASED amount of violence.

But good guys? Israelis are building walls to keep terrorists out, even though they could easily missile and bomb the whole of the palestinian cities, instead they are trying to do whatever they can to keep the violence out. In addition, Israelis are providing food, water, aid, medicine, doctors and countless other services, to the Palestinians. Israel has set up joint industrial zones with the palestinaians, to encourage cooperation and give palestinians jobs. The Palestinians have BOMED these zones, more so recently, causing many to be shut down. In the past, Israel has offered 98% of the territory that the Palestinians asked for, but they turned it down. The Palestinians needs to do some of their own work. They need to seek peace, and stop those within their ... [ Read More (0.3k in body) ]

specialK wrote:

] I do support the Israeli side of the argument--100%. If that
] makes me a radical, than that's a title I am proud to own.

Perhaps you have a vested interest?

] Actually, it is well-documented and entirely false that the
] IDF TARGETS civilians of any sort.

You're right. IDF wasn't targeting civilians. They were just demolishing their homes. Hopefully they clear them out first. I misread the articles.

NYT: The family members were worried that Israeli troops would eventually retaliate against them, possibly even destroying their two-story stucco house. Throughout the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli forces, as a deterrent strategy, have often destroyed the houses of families and local people who cooperate with the militants.

Haaretz: Members of the Za'anun family came out of their house holding sticks and rocks, and tried to drive the Al-Aqsa militants from their yard, most likely fearing that their house would be demolished if Qassam rockets were launched from it.

Albawaba: They said residents feared that an anti-Israeli attack would lead to harsh and collective Israeli reprisals.

BBC: A BBC correspondent says militants may have been planning a rocket attack, which the residents opposed for fear of Israeli retaliation.

Last month a missile fired from the area killed two people.

Israeli troops moved in soon afterwards to try to prevent further attacks. They have demolished homes and orchards and blockaded residents for more than 3 weeks.

] And it is easy to see that Israel has offered many
] peace agreements and their plan to pull out of the Gaza has
] been met with an actual INCREASED amount of violence.

I think that their plan to pull out of Gaza was a good decision. You actually have to create a sense for Palestinians that they can in fact live next door to Isreal safely without being legitimately concerned that their homes and land are going to be taken away. Obviously, the Palestinians have a similar responsibility to demonstrate that they are willing to live peacefully with Isrealis.

Of course, afraid of demonstrating weakness (as I recall), Isreal saw fit to launch a number of strikes at the same time they were pulling out. It may be fair to say that the Palestinians increased the amount of violence in the wake of the policy change (I simply don't know). So did Israel (and that was widely reported here).

] But good guys? Israelis are building walls to keep terrorists
] out, even though they could easily missile and bomb the whole
] of the palestinian cities, instead they are trying to do
] whatever they can to keep the violence out.

Isreal certainly could "missle and bomb the whole of the palestinian cities" but such an act would likely not go un-noticed by the rest of the international community.

The wall itself is quite controversial. It certainly reminds one of the wall in Berlin. Are people allowed to cross it? How difficult is that? How frequently placed are the crossing points?

] The Palestinians have BOMED these zones, more so recently,
] causing many to be shut down.

Try not to think about them monolithically. There are certainly those within Isreali society who beleive that God granted them the land and that they ought to "missle and bomb" the place out and then move in. Do they represent Isreal in general?

Decius wrote:
] specialK wrote:
]
] ] I do support the Israeli side of the argument--100%. If that
]
] makes me a radical, than that's a title I am proud to own.
]
] Perhaps you have a vested interest?

*** Yes. I have a vested interest in a democratic country having the right to defend it's own citizens from 52 years of almost daily terrorist attacks.

] ] Actually, it is well-documented and entirely false that the
] ] IDF TARGETS civilians of any sort.
]
] You're right. IDF wasn't targeting civilians. They were just
] demolishing their homes. Hopefully they clear them out first.
] I misread the articles.
]
] NYT: The family members were worried that Israeli troops would
] eventually retaliate against them, possibly even destroying
] their two-story stucco house. Throughout the West Bank and
] Gaza, Israeli forces, as a deterrent strategy, have often
] destroyed the houses of families and local people who
] cooperate with the militants.

*** As most well-informed people are aware, the NYT is typically left-justified torwards the "Palestinian Plight." Hence the use of the word militant, not terrorist. However, in my eyes, local people who cooperate with a militant\terrorist are also guilty of the same crime. The same rules apply in our country as well.
]
] Haaretz: Members of the Za'anun family came out of their house
] holding sticks and rocks, and tried to drive the Al-Aqsa
] militants from their yard, most likely fearing that their
] house would be demolished if Qassam rockets were launched from
] it.
]
] Albawaba: They said residents feared that an anti-Israeli
] attack would lead to harsh and collective Israeli reprisals.
]
] BBC: A BBC correspondent says militants may have been planning
] a rocket attack, which the residents opposed for fear of
] Israeli retaliation.
]
] Last month a missile fired from the area killed two people.
]
] Israeli troops moved in soon afterwards to try to prevent
] further attacks. They have demolished homes and orchards and
] blockaded residents for more than 3 weeks.
]

***As I see it, here's the problem with that: Even if some Palestinians oppose the actions of the terrorists, it is THEIR responsibility to do something about it. Under previous Israeli\Palestinian agreements, they were provided with weapons and a police force for this purpose. Yet nothing seems to be done about this issue---and its certainly a big one, especially when you're asking for your own country.

***On occasion Israel does have to blockade areas where Palestinians have fired missiles that have killed Israeli civilians. You quoted yourself, just above, that two Israelis were killed by military fire. It is the primary job of the Israeli government and the Israeli Defense Force to defend their own citizens... [ Read More (0.5k in body) ]