flynn23 wrote:

dc0de wrote:

flynn23 wrote:

It's not 1979. Go to any Big 3 dealership and look at the products. They are well made, cost competitive, and come with stellar service intervals and maintenance packages. You can hardly get a better value these days.

Perhaps, if you want a vehicle that doesn't get good gas mileage.

This is bullshit. The average engine size in the US is 3.2L, and in Europe it's 2.0L.

That is due to the marketing, the hype, and the lack of efficient choices by the big 3. They sell vehicles that are crap, that "look" pretty... and fall apart in 3-5 years. I'm still driving a 1994 Toyota Camry 2dr, that get's 33MPG. That's on my daily commute, not just hwy miles.

I had a big 3 dealership last year tell me that I needed a new car, because, "Your Camry doesn't have any warranty, and can't be that efficient." And they wanted to sell me a vehicle that got 24/28mpg for 19K.

Sorry, the Big 3 have been screwing the American people for FAR too long. Let them fail. Good Riddance.

Wrong.

For one, engine size is not a good determinant of fuel efficiency. If it was, then diesel engines on ships would never get out of the harbor.

Add to that the fact that European drivers are completely different consumer types than Americans. Driving is for the well to do in Europe. And given that the whole of Europe could fit into America, well... do the math. The products here need to tackle city commutes and take the family on vacation for 4000 miles. And look good doing it. That's a difficult balance to strike.

Detroit makes the cars that people want. Not all people. But they're not making stuff that people don't want. The proof is in the pudding. They sell more cars than foreign marques. Not just globally, but domestically. They don't go in some high rise board room and decide to sell powerful engines that get 20mpg in a "pretty" package because that's what they think will sell. They spend YEARS on market research and focus groups. In fact, one of the biggest problems is that the product development cycle is too long. Takes too much market research into consideration, which is why you get things like the Aztek or the Lincoln pick up. But you also get the Hemi back, the Jeep Liberty, and the return of the Charger and the Challenger (both of which get 25mpg+). The market tells them what they want, and they deliver. The Hemi engine's power efficiency is moot with today's engine designs. But it was the most successful engine branding campaign ever and that's why Chrysler sells a lot of Hemi's. The market WANTS it.

You're also forgetting that General Motors resurrected the electric car with the EV1, and proved that there was a marketplace for it, despite California's emission rules being dropped. If anything, the government screwed GM by telling them that 10% of all cars sold would have to be zero emissions, and then renegging and dropping the requirement after GM sank millions of dollars into product development. Meanwhile, no other marque brought an electric car to market until AFTER the law was repealed. So who's really getting screwed here?

If you look at quality standards, all of the domestic marques rank very high, relative to sales volume. They would probably rank higher, except the rankings don't take into account volume. It's hard to compete with a BMW or Lexus, which are premium brands, with an Impala or Mustang. While cars like the Camry and Accord are always at the top and outsell anything in their class, a lot of that has to do with the fact that those product lines are simpler than what Detroit offers. It's been recently that there have been more options available on the Accord, and because of that, quality has slipped in recent years, allowing Toyota to edge Honda. American's want options and will pay for them, so Detroit responds. Previous to the Accord's reign, the #1 car on quality lists for most of the 90's was Saturn.

Watching the news coverage about this is just sad. It's easy to beat up on these guys, and say they make crappy cars, because it's fashionable to say that. Just like it's fashionable to listen to 80s music. Detroit doesn't make crappy cars today. They are the envy of the world in terms of engineering, production process, and volume. Toyota chases GM. Not the other way around. GM sells more cars in China than Toyota does. The industry suffers from a PR problem that's not rooted in reality. Kinda like Brittney Spears. Yes, it's fun to laugh at her antics and call her a fruit loop, forgetting the fact that she's a human being with real problems that none of us would trade anything for.

1.) I've been bitching about the "big 3" for far longer than it has been "fashionable".

2.) You mentioned diesel cars, 40% of Europeans drive diesel cars. We drive 2%. Ask yourself why. It's not because they're smelly, smoky, and underpowered. The worlds fastest offshore boat is powered by twin 12cyl diesels.

3.) Driving in Europe is not for the Rich. It is easily approachable for most everyone in society. I know, I lived there for quite some time.

4.) Detroit, the Unions, and the Government have been keeping us from fuel efficient cars for MANY years, while they have been designed, delivered and welcomed in Asia, Europe, South America, India, Canada, and basically everywhere else in the world.

5.) You mention that GM sells more cars in China than Toyota does, there are many reasons for that, a) There is a long standing feud between China and Japan, and b) GM is selling a car that is very eco friendly, that we cannot purchase in the US, because GM won't produce and sell the vehicle here.

6.) I know that GM made the EV1, and they also killed it. That was in the 90's, where's their innovation now? There hasn't been any for a LONG time... just bigger gas guzzling Yukons, Suburbans, and LESS fuel efficient cars... how is that not counter productive.

7.) You parade around 25+MPG as if it's something to cheer about. It's Not. We need to have 50+MPG cars, and we need to have it legislated, since the Big 3 won't deliver them to the market. There WERE cars that could do 40+MPG that burned gasoline, however, the big 3 have not EVER produced one for the US market... and YOU think it's because the american people don't want one?

8.) The Hemi, I know it well, I love the original motor, and respect the developers of it in the late 50's and early 60's. Today's version? Isn't necessary, it's not needed, unless you build a $20mil marketing campaign to entice stupid people to buy it, to keep a strong lock on their dependence for oil.

9.) The final straw is that the Big 3 is now begging for ALMS, when they're failing. Last time I checked, they are a Commercial Entity, just like ANY other company, except for one thing.

They get to keep their gains when they got it right, but now that they've got it wrong, THEY WANT US TO COVER THEIR LOSSES. That is NOT how capitalism works. It's a gamble, and when you take your eye off the ball, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO LOSE.

I have made my own mistakes in life, and I have taken full responsibility for them. As I suspect you have too. I have not asked for a "bail-out" or loans when I don't have any collateral. I worked HARD for my gains, and I eat my losses, just like everyone else. If the Big 3 truly deserves anything, they should ask the Unions for the money. They've been ripping off the UAW members for decades, while getting fat and corrupt. It's time to change it all...

Let them eat cake.

RE: Show Of Hands