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This page contains all of the posts and discussion on MemeStreams referencing the following web page: The End of the West?. You can find discussions on MemeStreams as you surf the web, even if you aren't a MemeStreams member, using the Threads Bookmarklet.
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The End of the West?
by Jeremy at 5:12 pm EST, Nov 2, 2003 |
Tom Friedman's column appears in the Sunday New York Times. Well, the numbers are in and the numbers don't lie. The more I hear ... the more I wonder whether we are witnessing something much larger ... Are we witnessing the beginning of the end of "the West" as we have known it ...? I am not alone in thinking this. So, if in fact we are not at the end of history, then perhaps Tom is on to something here. It's less about the individual governments and more about the connections between them, or lack thereof. Welcome to the Network Society. |
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RE: The End of the West?
by Dedalos at 7:02 pm EST, Nov 2, 2003 |
Jeremy wrote:
] Tom Friedman's column appears in the Sunday New York Times.
]
] Well, the numbers are in and the numbers don't lie.
]
] The more I hear ... the more I wonder whether we are
] witnessing something much larger ...
]
] Are we witnessing the beginning of the end of "the
] West" as we have known it ...?
]
] I am not alone in thinking this.
]
]
] So, if in fact we are not at the end of history, then perhaps
] Tom is on to something here.
]
] It's less about the individual governments and more about the
] connections between them, or lack thereof.
]
] Welcome to the Network Society. There is a book by conservative politician Pat Buchanan, titled almost identically: "The death of the west" |
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RE: The End of the West?
by Jeremy at 7:19 pm EST, Nov 2, 2003 |
Dedalos wrote:
] There is a book by conservative politician Pat Buchanan,
] titled almost identically: "The death of the west" Despite the similarity of the titles, Buchanan's book has little or nothing to do with the topic of Friedman's article. This much is obvious just from reading the subtitle of the book: "How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization." Here's what Publisher's Weekly said about the book: Buchanan argues that "while the prognosis is not good," America must reevaluate itself and reclaim its white, Christian origins; despite the current "coarseness of her manners, the decadence of her culture, or the sickness in her soul," the nation is worth saving. Buchanan's passionately expressed ideology will be too extreme for most readers, and its proud bigotry is unlikely to play well even among most conservatives. In my view, Tom Friedman's perspective is squarely in the Information Age. In contrast, Pat Buchanan's viewpoint seems lost in the pre-Industrial Age. How many times has Pat Buchanan won the Pulitzer Prize? |
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RE: The End of the West?
by Dedalos at 2:24 pm EST, Nov 3, 2003 |
Jeremy wrote: ] How many times has Pat Buchanan won the Pulitzer Prize? Don't know. But William Faulkner won a Nobel Prize.
Nonetheless most people can't tell his prose from machine-translated text. Check out this quiz to see if you can: http://www.ee.ucla.edu/~simkin/sounds_like_faulkner.html |
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The End of the West?
by Rattle at 9:45 pm EST, Nov 2, 2003 |
] Today, however, we are motivated by different dates. "Our
] defining date is now 1989 and yours is 2001," said Mr.
] Bildt. Every European prime minister wakes up in the
] morning thinking about how to share sovereignty, as
] Europe takes advantage of the collapse of communism to
] consolidate economically, politically and militarily into
] one big family. And the U.S. president wakes up thinking
] about where the next terror attack might come from and
] how to respond -- most likely alone. "While we
] talk of peace, they talk of security," says Mr. Bildt.
] "While we talk of sharing sovereignty, they talk about
] exercising sovereign power. When we talk about a region,
] they talk about the world. No longer united primarily by
] a common threat, we have also failed to develop a common
] vision for where we want to go on many of the global
] issues confronting us."
]
] Just as we once had U.S.-Soviet summits to ease the
] tensions of the cold war, maybe it's time for a
] U.S.-French-German summit to ease the tensions of the
] post-cold war. Leaders of all three nations have behaved
] badly and have weakened the West, even if they have not
] ended it. It's time to chart a new Atlantic alliance, but
] not one that is based on nostalgia for 1945 -- one
] that really bridges the differences between 1989 and
] 2001. |
The End of the West?
by Decius at 10:45 pm EST, Nov 2, 2003 |
] So, if in fact we are not at the end of history, then perhaps Tom is
] on to something here.
]
] It's less about the individual governments and more about the
] connections between them, or lack thereof.
]
] Welcome to the Network Society. Well, this isn't really what I meant. If there is a split here I think it is only because we are behaving in an unwestern way. Unilateral, pre-emptive military action? Imprisoning people without due process? I think we've regressed. It could have been a lot worse, but it also could have been better. I was arguing that we'll see more positive innovation in the governance of societies as people become better informed and better at critical thinking... This is not the droid I'm looking for. I'm not even sure I'll see what I think will come in my lifetime, but I'm almost positive that I'm right. The way that things went down... Its not how I would have done it. Its not how a lot of people would have done it. I think we could have gone into Iraq with international support. With financial and military assistance. Had we spun it properly... It would have been better for us on many levels. It would have been cheaper. It would have been safer. It would have been less galvanizing to the radical elements. I don't think its clear that France took their position to save telecom contracts in Iraq. Thats just as insipid as claiming that we went in to claim oil reserves. I also don't think France thinks its impossible to do this. I simply think that they don't want to bail us out of this mess financially after the way we've behaved. The message we intended to send is that the United States is not constrained by the international community. The message we should have sent is that the international community has no need to constrain the United States. We could have sent that message. Its a shame. But, yes, we do need to address the grievances of the European community and do so early and often. If we think we don't have to care what they think, then we are eating our own spin. We'd be wrong, and we'll learn that one way or the other. Democracies do fight wars against each other. Being democratic does not make you nice. Being interconnected makes you interdependent, which makes you nice. |
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