inignoct wrote:
] can't say i blame the other dems. they may be opportunistic
] in making this the top story right now, but they're not wrong.
] first major tick against Dean in my book. I don't care what
] he *meant*, because he said it in a way that charges the
] statement with unwelcome elements.

I don't agree. I don't think confederate flags are racist by default. Its always said redneck more then racist to me. Sometimes those things are the same, but not always. People in Canada had them. Several state flags contained it until recently. It was on a big orange car in a popular TV show in the 70's. Lately there seems to have been a effort to equate it with the klan. I think thats dishonest really. The Klan certainly uses it, but its not something exclusive to them. The person who is getting offended is assigning a meaning that the people who are speaking do not intend.

It reminds me of a school play I was in high school. The students wrote the script. The word "sucks" was in the script. We said "sucks" all the time. It means "not good." We did the play and a bunch of parents got angry and went after the principal on it. It didn't even really occur to us that it could be taken as a reference to oral sex. My opinion was that it was the parents that had the problem, and not us. We weren't talking about oral sex. They were thinking it. Its wasn't our fault. Its a problem in their heads and not our speech. This situation is similar I think.

Decius wrote:
] I don't agree. I don't think confederate flags are racist by
] default. Its always said redneck more then racist to me.
] Sometimes those things are the same, but not always. People in
] Canada had them. Several state flags contained it until
] recently. It was on a big orange car in a popular TV show in
] the 70's. Lately there seems to have been a effort to equate
] it with the klan. I think thats dishonest really. The Klan
] certainly uses it, but its not something exclusive to them.
] The person who is getting offended is assigning a meaning that
] the people who are speaking do not intend.
]
] It reminds me of a school play I was in high school. The
] students wrote the script. The word "sucks" was in the script.
] We said "sucks" all the time. It means "not good." We did the
] play and a bunch of parents got angry and went after the
] principal on it. It didn't even really occur to us that it
] could be taken as a reference to oral sex. My opinion was that
] it was the parents that had the problem, and not us. We
] weren't talking about oral sex. They were thinking it. Its
] wasn't our fault. Its a problem in their heads and not our
] speech. This situation is similar I think.

meh. i had a response all written, but it looks like no one else really cares, besides the other dems. Jesse Jackson is about to announce his support for dean, so if Jesse doesn't care, i guess i don't either.

still strikes me as an imprecise statement for a presidential candidate. he had to know that was going to raise some hackles. maybe that's the point though... to make kerry and gep and lieberman look like yankee intellectuals who won't appeal to southern voters. which is almost certainly true, of course...

inignoct wrote:
] ] Then, in an interview with the Des Moines Register, Dean
] ] mentioned the Confederate flag. "I still want to be the
] ] candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup
] ] trucks," he told the Register. "We can't beat George Bush
] ] unless we appeal to a broad cross section of Democrats."
] ]
] ] That brought a new series of condemnations yesterday.
]
] can't say i blame the other dems. they may be opportunistic
] in making this the top story right now, but they're not wrong.
] first major tick against Dean in my book. I don't care what
] he *meant*, because he said it in a way that charges the
] statement with unwelcome elements.

I also don't agree. There are alot of people that take much pride in the confederate flag that are much less racist than your average starbucks going suburbanite. These are the people he was talking about... its just about Southern pride to them. They don't have alot of money, aren't intellectuals, and just want a candidate that isn't going to fuck them over. That was the image the line invoked for me. Am I missing some back story here? Have their been other incidents?

Personally, I think this is all trouble stirred up by a bunch of damned meddling yankees ;)

Jello wrote:
] I also don't agree. There are alot of people that take much
] pride in the confederate flag that are much less racist than
] your average starbucks going suburbanite. These are the
] people he was talking about... its just about Southern pride
] to them. They don't have alot of money, aren't intellectuals,
] and just want a candidate that isn't going to fuck them over.
] That was the image the line invoked for me. Am I missing some
] back story here? Have their been other incidents?
]
] Personally, I think this is all trouble stirred up by a bunch
] of damned meddling yankees ;)

it would appear that most people agree with you... as i said to Decius, if Jesse Jackson's gonna support Dean despite this, who am i to get annoyed by it.

i originally thought Dean was being incautious in his speaking, but now i think, more likely than not, that Dean said what he did on purpose. It could well have been a carefully crafted statement to force his opponents to take issue with it in a way that will alienate them from the south in exactly the way it probably has. Kerry and Lieberman at least never counted on much support from the south, but now they're in worse shape yet, calling those people you mention effectively racists.

For me at least, i never really understood Southern Pride, and i really never understood the confederate flag as a symbol thereof. To me, and possibly to most Yankees, the confederate flag has always been symbol of the civil war, of division, and thus of the issue of slavery. That's how it's taught in school, and it's hard to shake. And even with the benefit of more education on the issue, i find the concept of a banner celebrating sourthern pride to be a statement that the south wants to be separate, that they consider themselves different and that they would prefer to be the Confederate States of America, instead of part of the United States of America.

I certainly don't think most southerners feel that way, and i don't even think most people with the flag on their car have had that thought, but that's what it says to me, which makes it hard to reconcile with a national presidental race.

At any rate, you're almost certainly right about well-to-do suburbanites...