Decius wrote:
] ] The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ
] ] leveled to every understanding and too plain to need
] ] explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with
]
] ] which they might build up an artificial system which might,
]
] ] from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give
]
] ] employment for their order, and introduce it to profit,
] power,
] ] and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips
] ] of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child;
] but
] ] thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms
] ] engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense
]
] ] can never be explained." -Thomas Jefferson
]
] A very interesting and angry discussion on Slashdot about the
] Pledge case. Thought I'd bring it over here and see what
] people have to say. CNN's take is rather propagandist. In
] general, I find this subject to be messy. I think its obvious
] why the words "under god" have been added to the pledge, and I
] think its obvious that it was illegal to do it. However, three
] generations have now been raised bleating those words out
] every morning in a practice that I objected to as a child
] simply because it is the most obvious sort of brainwashing.
] Those people are no more likely to be able to look critically
] and rationally upon the words of their pledge then a Frenchman
] is to discard his native tongue. Could we not start by having
] schools which do not include these words in the pledge, or
] better yet, to not pledge at all? Does it make sense to
] confront America with its most ingrained irrational
] convictions directly? Is this going to be productive?

my feeling is that doing the pledge at all, either as a school or as an individual, should be voluntary. i don't really have a problem with *a* pledge of allegiance in principle. I think giving kids a bit of nationalism at a young age is perfectly acceptible, and when they're old enough to understand the words they're saying, then they should be allowed to choose not to say some, or all of them.

it's a slippery slope of course. I have many problems with the way our country is run in many areas, but i haven't moved to another country yet, and am not really planning to. i like america. to the extent that children are exposed to pride in the accomplishments of american government, they may be more inclined to help correct those things that tarnish what is otherwise good. the cynicism of our generation is pretty unparalleled and i think a lot of it stems from having the financial stability to analyse finer grained issues which aren't a concern in nations trying to pay for food.

at any rate, i think it's counterproductive to abolish the pledge entirely. when the populace of a nation h... [ Read More (0.2k in body) ]

inignoct wrote:
] to the extent that children are exposed to pride in
] the accomplishments of american government, they may be more
] inclined to help correct those things that tarnish what is
] otherwise good.

Thats valid. I don't mean that all trappings of community and national pride be eliminated. I simply mean that repetitive reading of slogans in particular is a fairly standard programming technique. I want a patriotism that doesn't require brainwashing. While I was refusing to say the pledge I was involved with my school's JROTC.

] the cynicism of our generation is pretty
] unparalleled and i think a lot of it stems from having the
] financial stability to analyse finer grained issues which
] aren't a concern in nations trying to pay for food.

Thats a great observation. I'll spend some time thinking about that. My initial thought is that its not just financial stability, but lack of motivation. There is no great purpose that drives us, or I guess all the great purposes which we might aspire too seem hopelessly out of reach in spite of our starting point.

] as a final thought, i don't think belief in god is a religious
] one at all.

I think what is important here is that you are framing the national identity as something with is intentionally exclusive of people from eastern cultures, and secular people. Chinese ancestor worship doesn't not involve gods. Buddha is not a god. Hindu has many gods, but they aren't exactly the same thing. Even the pre-roman european religions are excluded. Only the three middle eastern faiths have a singular "god" concept. America ought to see itself as a multicultural state.

Decius wrote:
] inignoct wrote:
] ] to the extent that children are exposed to pride in
] ] the accomplishments of american government, they may be more
]
] ] inclined to help correct those things that tarnish what is
] ] otherwise good.
]
] Thats valid. I don't mean that all trappings of community and
] national pride be eliminated. I simply mean that repetitive
] reading of slogans in particular is a fairly standard
] programming technique. I want a patriotism that doesn't
] require brainwashing. While I was refusing to say the pledge I
] was involved with my school's JROTC.

that's very respectable. all the kids i knew who were refusing to say the pledge were being dicks for no better reason than to raise hackles, not actual conviction.

] ] the cynicism of our generation is pretty
] ] unparalleled and i think a lot of it stems from having the
] ] financial stability to analyse finer grained issues which
] ] aren't a concern in nations trying to pay for food.
]
] Thats a great observation. I'll spend some time thinking about
] that. My initial thought is that its not just financial
] stability, but lack of motivation. There is no great purpose
] that drives us, or I guess all the great purposes which we
] might aspire too seem hopelessly out of reach in spite of our
] starting point.

definitely a lack of motivation, partially because we see the grand tasks as hopelessly out of reach but also partially because we think everything's already been done. creativity suffers if you feel like you're repeating things... why write a play if shakespeare already said what you want to say, perfectly, hundreds of years ago?

] ] as a final thought, i don't think belief in god is a
] religious
] ] one at all.
]
] I think what is important here is that you are framing the
] national identity as something with is intentionally exclusive
] of people from eastern cultures, and secular people. Chinese
] ancestor worship doesn't not involve gods. Buddha is not a
] god. Hindu has many gods, but they aren't exactly the same
] thing. Even the pre-roman european religions are excluded.
] Only the three middle eastern faiths have a singular "god"
] concept. America ought to see itself as a multicultural state.

that's fair. i don't know just how i'd do that, but it's a point worth considering. anyway, i wouldn't expect a lot out of this.