Dolemite wrote:
] "If you take the electricity from the current energy mix in
] the U.S., then in fact it doubles the CO2 [produced] per
] mile," says John Turner, a principal scientist at the National
] Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo.
]
] Wow. I knew that there had to be some kind of catch to
] Dubya's endorsement of Hydrogen Fuel-Cell vehicles, but I
] figured it was along the lines of ADM producing lots of
] genetically engineered corn to create ethanol.

Bush has made several moves to reduce our dependence on forgein oil. Most of them have environmental impacts. The administration obviously beleives that the political impact outweighs the environmental impact. They are almost certainly right about that.

Ultimately, it makes sense to move to ethanol even if it doesn't reduce emissions, not just for political reasons, but because it gets the emissions away from where the people are, and puts them in an environment where they are far easier to control. Its much easier and cheaper to ensure environmental compliance from a few thousand power plants them from millions of automobiles.

Progress is being made putting clean power into the grid. Its estimated that you'll be able to buy green power in most places in the US by the end of the decade. It will cost more, but I think many people will choose to pay for it because the cost difference is negligable and people will feel good about doing it. In California this stuff was available before the power crisis made it go away, and the demand exceeded supply. The green power people had a huge power debt that they owed the power company. As more people invest in green power, it gets cheaper, and eventually it becomes a competitive option for companies. Factor in technology improvement and you can see how this is going to go...

Dolemite wrote:
] Take the Richmond station, which generates hydrogen fuel by
] electrolysis, a process that separates water into hydrogen and
] oxygen. Using technology from Canada-based Stuart Energy, the
] separation process is powered by electricity. The catch: The
] electricity comes off the grid.
]
] "You can connect to the grid, or you can connect to renewable
] sources like wind and solar," says Wanda Cutler, a spokeswoman
] for Stuart Energy. "The grid is very clean, and you don't
] necessarily have to make your hydrogen during peak periods."
]
] The grid is very clean? In the United States more than 50
] percent of power plants are coal-fired, while renewable
] sources, like wind, account for less than 2 percent of
] electrical energy, according to the Union of Concerned
] Scientists.
]
] "If you take the electricity from the current energy mix in
] the U.S., then in fact it doubles the CO2 [produced] per
] mile," says John Turner, a principal scientist at the National
] Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo.
]
] Wow. I knew that there had to be some kind of catch to
] Dubya's endorsement of Hydrogen Fuel-Cell vehicles, but I
] figured it was along the lines of ADM producing lots of
] genetically engineered corn to create ethanol. The idea that
] it will be produced through electrolysis is much worse, since
] he also rolled back the requirement that power plant add-ons
] are exempt from clean air laws.

I don't know if I agree with the quote that the CO2 gets doubled. Emissions from hydrogen fuel cells are zero. It's water and heat at the end of the process. So even though you are consuming more coal fired electricty, you are reducing the greenhouse gas emissions, which gives you a net of zero, not 2x.

PLUS, as Decius pointed out, green power is on the rise. There's a lot of movement towards using natural gas instead of coal. There's also several flavors of fuel cell, which use things like ethanol, methanol, alcohol, and even gasoline. The bottom line here is that the technology works, it's only going to get better, it's only going to get cheaper, and at some point, our energy matrix will be solar generated electricity feeding hydrogen fuel cells, resulting in reverse greenhouse gas emissions.

I've spent the last year investigating fuel cell technology as a possible business and I'm convinced that we will get to the above point within my lifetime.

flynn23 wrote:

] I don't know if I agree with the quote that the CO2 gets
] doubled. Emissions from hydrogen fuel cells are zero. It's
] water and heat at the end of the process. So even though you
] are consuming more coal fired electricty, you are reducing the
] greenhouse gas emissions, which gives you a net of zero, not
] 2x.

I wish I could remember where I've read the statistics, but the majority of air pollutants don't come from cars, they come from the industrial complex, including power plants. What the article is saying is that the amount of CO2 placed into the air by coal fired electrical plants is orders of magnitude higher than that of a gasoline engine. The article mentioned didn't state where a lot of our coal comes from - China and Russia.

] PLUS, as Decius pointed out, green power is on the rise.
] There's a lot of movement towards using natural gas instead of
] coal. There's also several flavors of fuel cell, which use
] things like ethanol, methanol, alcohol, and even gasoline. The
] bottom line here is that the technology works, it's only going
] to get better, it's only going to get cheaper, and at some
] point, our energy matrix will be solar generated electricity
] feeding hydrogen fuel cells, resulting in reverse greenhouse
] gas emissions.

I don't disagree with either of you one bit on that. I'm a big fan of advancing technology, especially in the area of fossil fuel independence. I'm seriously considering trading in the pick-em-up truck for a Ford Escape Hybrid gas/electric SUV when they are released later this year. It's the subterfuge - replacing Arab oil with Chinese coal - that I wanted to point out in the article, I wasn't trying to downplay the impact of more efficient vehicles.

] I've spent the last year investigating fuel cell technology as
] a possible business and I'm convinced that we will get to the
] above point within my lifetime.

I'd love to see this work, seriously. I think within 3 more years we'll see some serious advances in vehicle efficiency. Hell, even Saturn is working on a gas/electric hybrid to come out within the next 3 years, and they're about as slow as molasses when it comes to keeping up with the times.