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The torture row is not going to go away.
by Decius at 8:58 am EDT, Apr 23, 2009 |
Karpinski was one of two officers punished over the aggressive interrogations at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Throughout the ordeal, Karpinski maintained that she and her troops were following interrogation guidelines approved by top brass. Today, Karpinski has found validation in a few Bush-era memos released last week by the Obama administration. The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. His OK prompted interrogators in Afghanistan and Iraq to adopt the aggressive techniques. The guidance was delivered to Abu Ghraib by then-Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who was summoned to Baghdad from Guantanamo to evaluate the prison system.
Apparently the "left wing conspiracy theorists" who argued that what happened at Abu Ghraib came from the top and was not the product of "bad apples" were, in fact, absolutely correct about that. Rumself personally authorized this. This is a political issue. In light of this, Obama has apparently softened his prior stance against prosecuting former administration officials. There is a risk that such prosecutions could turn into a political circus, but its starting to look like the situation is going to demand them anyway. Its bad. Real bad. The new report includes testimony from an Army psychologist at Guantanamo Bay who described increasingly relentless pressure from Washington in the summer of 2002 to use harsher methods on detainees. "[T]his is my opinion, even though they were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between AI Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq," Army Maj. Paul Burney told investigators. "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link...there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."
Torture used to produce false confessions needed to justify a war! That is EXACTLY why Torture is illegal. If this is true, the leadership of the Bush administration could go to prison. This could be very, very bad for the country. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by flynn23 at 11:32 am EDT, Apr 23, 2009 |
Decius wrote: If this is true, the leadership of the Bush administration could go to prison. This could be very, very bad for the country.
How so? I mean, I can see it being very divisive, and certainly distracting, but given the long list of potential infractions, what do you think should happen? |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Mike the Usurper at 12:16 pm EDT, Apr 23, 2009 |
flynn23 wrote: Decius wrote: If this is true, the leadership of the Bush administration could go to prison. This could be very, very bad for the country.
How so? I mean, I can see it being very divisive, and certainly distracting, but given the long list of potential infractions, what do you think should happen?
I'm with Flynn on this. Divisive sure, but I think when what these guys were doing is all the way out, the only people that won't be calling for their heads are the same ones who don't have any trouble with torture. My comparison point for Bush & Co was Mussolini, and that seems to be holding pretty solidly with their actions. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Decius at 2:06 pm EDT, Apr 23, 2009 |
flynn23 wrote: Decius wrote: If this is true, the leadership of the Bush administration could go to prison. This could be very, very bad for the country.
How so? I mean, I can see it being very divisive, and certainly distracting, but given the long list of potential infractions, what do you think should happen?
Simply put, I don't believe this was spin. During this long period of delay and potential litigation, ugly passions would again be aroused. And our people would again be polarized in their opinions. And the credibility of our free institutions of government would again be challenged at home and abroad. In the end... the verdict of history would even be more inconclusive with respect to those charges arising out of the period of his Presidency... My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I, as President, have the constitutional power to firmly shut and seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my duty, not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility but to use every means that I have to insure it.
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Mike the Usurper at 9:45 pm EDT, Apr 23, 2009 |
Decius wrote:
During this long period of delay and potential litigation, ugly passions would again be aroused. And our people would again be polarized in their opinions. And the credibility of our free institutions of government would again be challenged at home and abroad. In the end... the verdict of history would even be more inconclusive with respect to those charges arising out of the period of his Presidency... My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I, as President, have the constitutional power to firmly shut and seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my duty, not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility but to use every means that I have to insure it.
That was Jerry Ford pardoning Nixon, and he was wrong to have done so. It gave us these bastards. How many times have we heard "It can't happen here." No. Enough. This has already gone too far and needs to be stopped now. The lies that these people told us so they could do this. We do not sweep this under the rug, we drag these recalcitrant despots into the light of day. We are either a nation of law and can move forward in that light, or we are a yet another joke to be swept into the ashheap of history. These people are responsible for the torture of people in our custody, and the deaths of some of those at Bagram and Abu Ghraib. This cannot stand. If it does we have lost the soul of the country. This is a fundamental evil and cannot be ignored. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by flynn23 at 6:50 pm EDT, Apr 25, 2009 |
Decius wrote: flynn23 wrote: Decius wrote: If this is true, the leadership of the Bush administration could go to prison. This could be very, very bad for the country.
How so? I mean, I can see it being very divisive, and certainly distracting, but given the long list of potential infractions, what do you think should happen?
Simply put, I don't believe this was spin. During this long period of delay and potential litigation, ugly passions would again be aroused. And our people would again be polarized in their opinions. And the credibility of our free institutions of government would again be challenged at home and abroad. In the end... the verdict of history would even be more inconclusive with respect to those charges arising out of the period of his Presidency... My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I, as President, have the constitutional power to firmly shut and seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my duty, not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility but to use every means that I have to insure it.
That's where I thought you were going. It's clear, particularly when you look at the wiretapping situation, that the White House is not going to give up the expansion of power it received during the Bush Administration so easily, regardless of its morality. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Decius at 8:12 pm EDT, Apr 25, 2009 |
flynn23 wrote:
The White House is not going to give up the expansion of power it received during the Bush Administration so easily, regardless of its morality.
In some respects both the issue of detainees and of wiretapping were resolved before Obama got into office. Closing gitmo was symbolic. I'm still trying to figure out how long it is appropriate to wait before raising issues such as laptop searches again... The jury is still out. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by flynn23 at 6:05 pm EDT, Apr 27, 2009 |
Decius wrote: flynn23 wrote:
The White House is not going to give up the expansion of power it received during the Bush Administration so easily, regardless of its morality.
In some respects both the issue of detainees and of wiretapping were resolved before Obama got into office.
Yes, but not by the public, which is where those decisions should've been resolved. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Decius at 8:18 am EDT, Apr 25, 2009 |
Decius wrote: The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. His OK prompted interrogators in Afghanistan and Iraq to adopt the aggressive techniques.
Apparently the "left wing conspiracy theorists" who argued that what happened at Abu Ghraib came from the top and was not the product of "bad apples" were, in fact, absolutely correct about that. Rumself personally authorized this.
In retrospect, I think I was wrong here. The abuses at Abu Ghraib went far beyond "use of phobias." They weren't authorized by this memo. |
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RE: The torture row is not going to go away.
by Lost at 4:52 pm EDT, Apr 26, 2009 |
Decius wrote: Decius wrote: The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. His OK prompted interrogators in Afghanistan and Iraq to adopt the aggressive techniques.
Apparently the "left wing conspiracy theorists" who argued that what happened at Abu Ghraib came from the top and was not the product of "bad apples" were, in fact, absolutely correct about that. Rumself personally authorized this.
In retrospect, I think I was wrong here. The abuses at Abu Ghraib went far beyond "use of phobias." They weren't authorized by this memo.
Nudity + Dogs + Phobia (homophobia) pretty well describes the pictures, doesn't it? All that was authorized, wasn't it? |
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