Mike the Usurper wrote:

dc0de wrote:

Mike -
Well, you make a few good points, but completely miss on some others.

Point #1
"Is it an increase in the cost of ammo? Slightly, but marginal at most."

What about those of us who handload/reload? We can't serialize, or etch, so now it's illegal to do something we've done for years? We have to destroy our existing ammo at our own cost?

I currently reload .45cal at a COST of approximately $0.05 per round. The cheapest that I can purchase rounds today, is $0.14/round. I spent my money to purchase my reloading equipment,Legally, so that I can save money, not spend MORE. ANY COST that increases, will be MORE money out of my pocket. With these laws, it would be illegal for me to reload, cast, or other wise use my equipment. Serializing will remove my ability to SAVE money, and shoot often. No one has yet talked about how this will effect the muzzle loading communities either. I would also be forced to purchase ammunition from a limited set of ammunition manufacturers, a fact that will cause bottlenecks in the supply chain, and causing ammo prices to rise even higher. Ammo manufacturers are already closing their factories in states that are requiring serialization, due to the high costs of retooling. They are also looking at refusing to sell to other states where it is a requirement. Retooling the manufacturing lines is an expensive option, and there are issues with safety where the serialization lasers and reloading systems will need to be separated, as the laser and the powder simply don't play well together. (think big boom.)

There is little proof that the this will actually help find out anything about the shooter, and less proof that the serial number will actually survive the firing, impact and forensics process. It has already been proven that the rifle calibers will NOT survive the process.

As a legislator, my position is, ammunition manufactured for sale shall be serialized as a unique stamp in the cartridge (that is, the "brass"). Serial numbers need to be tracked to point and date of sale, we don't need recorded ID on ammo sales. That covers privacy issues, but still accelerates tracking.

If you're a reloader, you're probably not selling, and even if you are, you're not manufacturing the brass. Serialization in my book would have zero effect on you, aside from maybe increasing the cost of new rounds to get new brass. For muzzle loaders it has even less effect. No brass equals no serialization, period. The way I would implement serialization applies to the brass.

Well, that's not the way the legislation reads, it will BAN reloading completely, and require not only the bullets to be serialized, but the brass be microstamped when the round is fired by the weapon.

Point #2
"You become capable of determining not just caliber, but you can start pinning locations, and that helps track down the people who used the ammo illegally."

This is a meaningless statement. Caliber is easily determined when you obtain a recovered slug. Go to your local range, and ask them to show you the recovered rounds from their traps. You can, as an amateur, discover 90% of the recovered slugs caliber, with a caliper.

It is myopic to think that tracking down people who use ammo illegally will be valid. You think that by passing these laws that law abiding people will then go out and kill people? The criminals who use weapons to invoke terror on our cities will simply go purchase (on the newly created black market), my old reloading gear, and cast, create, and shoot their own ammunition. You'll have made their lives easier, and ours harder. But I guess as a non-gun owner, you don't care about that. You see this as a way to pander to the left.

No, finding out the caliber is easy. That is something anyone can do. A lot of forensics guys can do so by sight and don't even need the calipers. If they have the brass now, maybe they can get the firing pin "signature." I want them to be able to, if they have the brass, find the point of sale and see about tracking that way. See the previous comment about point #1 on your reloading gear. I might be a lefty, but I'm not a moron.

How are you going to track the ammo from point of sale? Come to my house and ask me where it is? I shot it at a range. I left the casings.

The Firing Pin signature can be easily changed on any weapon, with a simple nail file. As can the signatures from the lands and grooves inside the barrel. As can any microstamping system that "could" be put into a weapon in the future.

IBIS and NIBIN already track this information.

Point #3
"More than that, the same people who oppose anything like this oppose things that make sense like doing ballistics checks on all new guns pre-sale."

I completely disagree. I am FIRMLY in agreement with ballistics testing all weapons, from the FACTORY. In fact, I have a round that I have fired into a trap for every weapon I own, in the unlikely event it is stolen. I will provide the police with the image of the weapon, the serial numbers of the frame and barrel, as well as the ballistics slug and fired casings, so they can catch the criminal that has stolen my weapon. The NIBIN and IBIS systems are ALREADY in place to assist in this activity. Any additional serialization is a costly and futile effort that penalizes those of us who shoot for sport, hobby, and enjoyment, and removes the ability to handload, reload, and cast our own rounds. It will also remove the Skeet and Trap shooting sports, as these weapons and ammo will also have to be serialized. Most of the Skeet and Trap shooters that I know, reload their own shells as an effort to save money.

Well as a candidate, I can tell you right now, the NRA is fighting tooth and nail to block ballistics checks from the factory. I've already addressed how I'd do serialization, and handloading/reloading, that is still a non-issue for what I'm talking about.

Well, the NRA is going to fight even harder, to block this, because it is a back-door method to usurp the 2nd Amendment, and will effect not only NRA members, but those of us who shoot and aren't members of the NRA.

Point #4
"But serialization of ammo is at most a negligible cost, and a firm step in the right direction for finding and sending people who commit gun crimes to jail."

Hogwash. Criminals will either steal the serialized ammo, or simply make their own. The NIBIN and IBIS databases were already created to track those weapons that are on the black market, and serialization of ammo is like taggets in explosives. It simply doesn't work. What are you going to do when a criminal takes some microstamped casings from one law abiding person's day at the firing range, and drops them at a crime scene, while shooting handloaded ammo from their defiled and older blackmarket weapon? You're going to have the police chasing their tail, in the wrong direction, and not using the tools that they already have to stop these criminals. (See NIBIN and IBIS)

I agree with your assessment about taking the brass from the range. I will argue instead, that it gives police another known location to find the person who did the actual shooting. Tracking the ammo means you're chasing to wrong stops but you're still headed towards the right destination. That's not chasing your tail, that's following another trail.

Stolen ammo and stolen guns have always been a problem, I don't see IDing the origination of the brass as a problem, but as another point of information to use as a lead. I don't think the data should be sent in, but I do like the idea of it being available under warrant.

What? What gives the police another known location for what? A firing range? Firing ranges don't have video surveillance, unless you're going to push for that too. A dead end, is a dead end. You can spin it any way you want, it's going to cost the Taxpayer more money, with less results.

Point #5
"Congratulations on supporting the rights of sociopaths everywhere by blocking things that can lead to their capture."

Rights are rights, even sociopaths have rights. I'm not supporting theirs any more or less than your right to burn a flag. I served my country in the military to support your rights to say any and all of this. Pandering like this is another reason I don't like these types of Political statements. It's akin to saying, "What? You don't support the laws that will help stop pedophiles?, you pedophile lover..." it's sophomoric, useless, and exactly what I expect from a politician.

However, no legislation that claims to be for the common good, that actually will not PERFORM any common good, is a penalty. One that makes activities that I consider a sport, entertainment, and a way of life in my country, should be bandied about with such little regard.

I actually support the death penalty, for anyone who uses a firearm in the committing of a crime, or is committed of a aggravated rape, premeditated murder, or other heinous crime. It's time to TOUGHEN our judicial system. It solves our overcrowded prison issues, our "firearms" issues, and make people respect the laws we already have. Making more laws simply spends more money, we need LESS government, not more.

I mostly agree here as well. Rights are rights. If I didn't think doing something on these lines would actually help, I wouldn't bother with it. I do think what I want to do would help, would do so with minimal intrusion, and would do so without stepping on anyone's rights, either privacy or to bear arms. I don't agree with Ed Meese's famous line, "You don't have many suspects who are innocent of a crime. That's contradictory. If a person is innocent of a crime, then he is not a suspect." That's wrong and anyone with a brain can see it.

On the other hand, I don't support the death penalty, for one simple reason. It's too easy to get the wrong guy, and you can't fix dead. Executing people also doesn't solve overcrowding. Want to solve that? So do I. What would I do? First, get rid of these stupid "three strikes you're out" rules. That's how you end up with this. Second, rework punishment for non-violent offenses. Idiots like Paris Hilton should get the the ankle bracelet and trash detail on the side of the road for 10 hours a day. Third, rework the drug punishment schedule. Selling pot sends people to jail longer than assault with a deadly weapon. That's insane.

I don't think I have all the answers. I think the ideas for serialized brass and ballistic fingerprinting for new weapons are good ones with little to no cost impact, and no impact on rights. If you want to get in the way of what I'm talking about, give me a good reason and I'll listen to it. Hell, maybe we can come up with something even better, but something needs to change because where things are right now isn't very damn good.
Just because you don't have the answers, doesn't mean you should follow a bad piece of legislation. Unless, of course, You have to spin to your constituents that you are actually "doing" something. Just because it's something to do, should be the prime reason for supporting it, you should instead, find out what the RIGHT thing to do is, and not destroy the rights we have, to stop something that we can stop with other methods. Instead of thinking that all weapons owners, hunters, sportsmen, and enthusiasts are the problem, take a look at what causes the crimes and deal with that. You're simply treating the symptoms.

RE: Microstamping and Serialization | Slinging Lead...downrange...