Rattle wrote:

] On the other side, I really hope they are not full of shit,
] and have sucessfuly done it. I really like the idea of the
] history books reading that the first human clone was created
] by a nutty group of loons with dreams of immortality who
] thought that humans were genetically engineered by aliens.

The problem is that this sends a really bad message about cloning. This baby, if real, is probably going to be fucked up. People looking for an excuse to ban genetic engineering (some of whom have reasons that are no more realistic then those of this Alien group) will hold up this poor child as an example of the bad things that happen when you screw with genetics.

It is wrong to take poorly understood genetic techniques and apply them to a real human being. Its mad science, in the English sense. Its science that hurts people.

We are increasingly in an environment where alarmist, reactionary thinking rules the day. Look at the Stock Market. Thats people betting AGAINST future growth in this country. Take Bill Joy, Fukuyama, and the DMCA, throw in 19 terrorists and this Alien group... shaken, not stirred. We may be heading toward a dark time, when certain kinds of thoughts, explorations, and considerations, are simply not allowed in the light of day, and must occur under a shrowd of secrecy regardless of how responsible they are. I kept hearing that theory from everyone at Defcon. I discounted it, but it is a distinct possibility.

Decius wrote:
] The problem is that this sends a really bad message about
] cloning. This baby, if real, is probably going to be fucked
] up. People looking for an excuse to ban genetic engineering
] (some of whom have reasons that are no more realistic then
] those of this Alien group) will hold up this poor child as an
] example of the bad things that happen when you screw with
] genetics.
]
] It is wrong to take poorly understood genetic techniques and
] apply them to a real human being. Its mad science, in the
] English sense. Its science that hurts people.

Yep, as I said, there are many reasons I don't like this. I'm trying to see a brite side to it, granted, the only thing I've gotten thus far is a stoke to my sick sense of humor. And that not necessarly a good thing. I would rather have people like John Waters stoking my sick sense of humor, but these people.. Ug. You take what you can get I guess.

] We are increasingly in an environment where alarmist,
] reactionary thinking rules the day. Look at the Stock Market.
] Thats people betting AGAINST future growth in this country.
] Take Bill Joy, Fukuyama, and the DMCA, throw in 19 terrorists
] and this Alien group... shaken, not stirred. We may be heading
] toward a dark time, when certain kinds of thoughts,
] explorations, and considerations, are simply not allowed in
] the light of day, and must occur under a shrowd of secrecy
] regardless of how responsible they are. I kept hearing that
] theory from everyone at Defcon. I discounted it, but it is a
] distinct possibility.

It is a distinct possibility. Infact, I think we are going down that path already, and I'm not sure it can be stopped. I expect resistance to things like community networks, open media systems, open source software, etc, to happen at some point in the future. People seem to like having someone in control. Makes them feel comfortable. I think that at some point, so much change is going to be occuring that people are going to get scared and run to their favorite defense mechanism and start stopping progress. I do think the long term effects of things like information technology and bio engineering are going to be a hell of alot greater then the assembly line and the cotton gin, if you catch my drift.

We are living in the asymetrical age. Many things are being turned upside down. War, communications networks, the media, etc. Its a growth process, a painful growth process. Who knows what the hell will happen. But whatever it is, its not going to be pretty. We don't have a choice but to be ready for it. If my rights to work on projects I want to work on are infringed, I'm prepared to go underground. Bad news is, so is everyone else. This cloning thing may be proof of that. There is nothing we can do to limit bad science that isn't at the expense of good science also. Them the breaks.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that we don't destroy the human race in the process of adapting to the changes our technological advancement are causing us to undergo. I have a very grim view of the future anymore, and whats worse is I'm becoming comfortable with that grim view..

Decius wrote:
] Rattle wrote:
]
] ] On the other side, I really hope they are not full of shit,
] ] and have sucessfuly done it. I really like the idea of the
] ] history books reading that the first human clone was created
]
] ] by a nutty group of loons with dreams of immortality who
] ] thought that humans were genetically engineered by aliens.
]
] The problem is that this sends a really bad message about
] cloning. This baby, if real, is probably going to be fucked
] up. People looking for an excuse to ban genetic engineering
] (some of whom have reasons that are no more realistic then
] those of this Alien group) will hold up this poor child as an
] example of the bad things that happen when you screw with
] genetics.
]
] It is wrong to take poorly understood genetic techniques and
] apply them to a real human being. Its mad science, in the
] English sense. Its science that hurts people.
]
] We are increasingly in an environment where alarmist,
] reactionary thinking rules the day. Look at the Stock Market.
] Thats people betting AGAINST future growth in this country.
] Take Bill Joy, Fukuyama, and the DMCA, throw in 19 terrorists
] and this Alien group... shaken, not stirred. We may be heading
] toward a dark time, when certain kinds of thoughts,
] explorations, and considerations, are simply not allowed in
] the light of day, and must occur under a shrowd of secrecy
] regardless of how responsible they are. I kept hearing that
] theory from everyone at Defcon. I discounted it, but it is a
] distinct possibility.

People in the genetics industy claim that it is a hoax. Nobody has seen pictures of the baby yet and there's been no scientific proof yet that they've cloned anything, but yet the media is jumping on this shit like it's proof.

Personally, I think that if this is a hoax, this is going to harm the future of cloning, because people are going to speed up the process of getting laws to ban it.

I do however want to go see their theme park, "UFO Land".

] People in the genetics industy claim that it is a hoax.
] Nobody has seen pictures of the baby yet and there's been no
] scientific proof yet that they've cloned anything, but yet the
] media is jumping on this shit like it's proof.

According to the Washington Post, the Raelians claimed a similar cloning success back in 1978, but further investigation proved it to be a hoax:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56233-2002Dec30.html

The story is also interesting because it comments on the reputation of the ABC Science Correspondent, Michael Guillen, who's going to be conducting the DNA testing of the mother and baby to determine if the cloning is real or not. Evidently a few years back, the James Randi Foundation (http://www.randi.org) gave Guillen its annual "Pigasus" award, for his "indiscriminate promotion of pseudoscience and quackery."

Stay tuned...

] People in the genetics industy claim that it is a hoax.
] Nobody has seen pictures of the baby yet and there's been no
] scientific proof yet that they've cloned anything, but yet the
] media is jumping on this shit like it's proof.

According to the Washington Post, the Raelians claimed a similar cloning success back in 1978, but further investigation proved it to be a hoax.

The story is also interesting because it comments on the reputation of the ABC Science Correspondent, Michael Guillen, who's going to be conducting the DNA testing of the mother and baby to determine if the cloning is real or not. Evidently a few years back, the James Randi Foundation (http://www.randi.org) gave Guillen its annual "Pigasus" award, for his "indiscriminate promotion of pseudoscience and quackery."

Stay tuned...

Cloning a Previous Hoax?

Decius wrote:
] Rattle wrote:
]
] ] On the other side, I really hope they are not full of shit,
] ] and have sucessfuly done it. I really like the idea of the
] ] history books reading that the first human clone was created
]
] ] by a nutty group of loons with dreams of immortality who
] ] thought that humans were genetically engineered by aliens.
]
] The problem is that this sends a really bad message about
] cloning. This baby, if real, is probably going to be fucked
] up. People looking for an excuse to ban genetic engineering
] (some of whom have reasons that are no more realistic then
] those of this Alien group) will hold up this poor child as an
] example of the bad things that happen when you screw with
] genetics.
]

] It is wrong to take poorly understood genetic techniques and
] apply them to a real human being. Its mad science, in the
] English sense. Its science that hurts people.
]
] We are increasingly in an environment where alarmist,
] reactionary thinking rules the day. Look at the Stock Market.
] Thats people betting AGAINST future growth in this country.
] Take Bill Joy, Fukuyama, and the DMCA, throw in 19 terrorists
] and this Alien group... shaken, not stirred. We may be heading
] toward a dark time, when certain kinds of thoughts,
] explorations, and considerations, are simply not allowed in
] the light of day, and must occur under a shrowd of secrecy
] regardless of how responsible they are. I kept hearing that
] theory from everyone at Defcon. I discounted it, but it is a
] distinct possibility.

THis child, if a true clone, most defininly will be fucked up. I have seen no publication in any of the science journals that have fixed the problems in cloning that cause the problems in Dolly. Dolly is aging at double the rate of a normal sheep because her telomeres are all fucked up. I highly doubt that these people have found a way to circumvent that without publishing it. It is my firm belief that this is not for real, but instead, some ploy to get funding thrown their way. Unfortunatly, all that will be thrown at them if this is true, is a bunch of new laws that restrict science even more. As I said in my other post, therapuetic cloning is important for many things such as tissue engineering and the like, but the laws most likely won't be specific enough to let research continue in that area. That means that more scientists will decide to leave the US to do research in less restrictive countries, which will weaken the science coming out of the US. Also, this will affect the way people react to news about genetic engineering, because they will watch these clones, and the second anything goes wrong, a finger will get pointed at genetic research.