Decius wrote:
] ] "Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were
] ] in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming
] ] forward to comply with a new rule to register with
] ] immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and
] ] behind bars."
]
] This is just stupid. If you were a terrorist would YOU show up
] for the INS roundup?

This is so unbelievably fucked up I can't believe it. I was just speculating yesterday that these rules reminded me of the Japanese internments and could possibly be a precursor. But, honestly, I didn't think they would actually go and put these people in jail. This is horrible. Our country is on the brink of some serious problems.

Please take action by expressing your feelings to your government representatives.

Decius wrote:
] ] "Hundreds of Iranian and other Middle East citizens were
] ] in southern California jails on Wednesday after coming
] ] forward to comply with a new rule to register with
] ] immigration authorities only to wind up handcuffed and
] ] behind bars."
]
] This is just stupid. If you were a terrorist would YOU show up
] for the INS roundup?

that's exactly the point. It makes it much easier to catch the bad guys when everyone else is at the party across town.

flynn23 wrote:

] ] This is just stupid. If you were a terrorist would YOU show
] up
] ] for the INS roundup?
]
] that's exactly the point. It makes it much easier to catch the
] bad guys when everyone else is at the party across town.

Nice try, but if this was the case then they wouldn't have arrested so many people. You are over estimating the intelligence of your government beaurocrats.

1. I don't have a problem with the round up, only with the arrests.

2. They arrested people for simple paperwork problems (failed to file a change of address form) and "other crimes" which presumably includes traffic warrants, something the INS usually doesn't care about. They arrested as many people as they possibly could.

3. They arrested enough people to cause a scare, so if they run a similar program in another state there will be a large number of people who would otherwise have shown up who will not show up because they are afraid (maybe they have a traffic warrant out). The result is that if the intent is to observe who doesn't show, than these efforts will be LESS EFFECTIVE in the future because of the arrests. If the government is crafty enough to run this as a decoy, then they are crafty enough to make sure they don't ruin its usefulness for this purpose in the future.

4. All they had to do with the people who had paper work problems is give them an opportunity to fix things. This would serve the purpose of stirring up the community enough to notice the odd man out, it would get the INS paperwork in order, and INS ends up looking like someone you can trust.

5. Not showing up is a pre-tense for deportation of registered aliens. People are afraid to show cause they'll get poped for a traffic warrant, and now the feds have a reason to deport them.

6. Basically, the simplest explanation is that this is a fishing expedition. They can't haul the whole community in for questioning directly, but they've found a loophole that lets them net at least a quarter of the community.

7. The use of force beyond necessity is the definition of tyranny. (See 4.)

Decius wrote:
] flynn23 wrote:
]
] ] ] This is just stupid. If you were a terrorist would YOU
] show
] ] up
] ] ] for the INS roundup?
] ]
] ] that's exactly the point. It makes it much easier to catch
] the
] ] bad guys when everyone else is at the party across town.
]
] Nice try, but if this was the case then they wouldn't have
] arrested so many people. You are over estimating the
] intelligence of your government beaurocrats.
]
] 1. I don't have a problem with the round up, only with the
] arrests.
]
] 2. They arrested people for simple paperwork problems (failed
] to file a change of address form) and "other crimes" which
] presumably includes traffic warrants, something the INS
] usually doesn't care about. They arrested as many people as
] they possibly could.
]
] 3. They arrested enough people to cause a scare, so if they
] run a similar program in another state there will be a large
] number of people who would otherwise have shown up who will
] not show up because they are afraid (maybe they have a traffic
] warrant out). The result is that if the intent is to observe
] who doesn't show, than these efforts will be LESS EFFECTIVE in
] the future because of the arrests. If the government is crafty
] enough to run this as a decoy, then they are crafty enough to
] make sure they don't ruin its usefulness for this purpose in
] the future.
]
] 4. All they had to do with the people who had paper work
] problems is give them an opportunity to fix things. This would
] serve the purpose of stirring up the community enough to
] notice the odd man out, it would get the INS paperwork in
] order, and INS ends up looking like someone you can trust.
]
] 5. Not showing up is a pre-tense for deportation of registered
] aliens. People are afraid to show cause they'll get poped for
] a traffic warrant, and now the feds have a reason to deport
] them.
]
] 6. Basically, the simplest explanation is that this is a
] fishing expedition. They can't haul the whole community in for
] questioning directly, but they've found a loophole that lets
] them net at least a quarter of the community.
]
] 7. The use of force beyond necessity is the definition of
] tyranny. (See 4.)

Exactly.

Decius wrote:

] ] that's exactly the point. It makes it much easier to catch
] the
] ] bad guys when everyone else is at the party across town.
]
] Nice try, but if this was the case then they wouldn't have
] arrested so many people. You are over estimating the
] intelligence of your government beaurocrats.

I think you missed my point. While all this is going on, you don't think they've grabbed a couple of suspects or ne'er-do-wells and hauled them off for questioning? A good diversion is always a great tactic to hide when you're going to do something really nasty.

] 1. I don't have a problem with the round up, only with the
] arrests.

well, they were illegal. Frankly, it's about time that the INS actually did their job of policing non-citizens.

] 2. They arrested people for simple paperwork problems (failed
] to file a change of address form) and "other crimes" which
] presumably includes traffic warrants, something the INS
] usually doesn't care about. They arrested as many people as
] they possibly could.

I think it's about time they started caring. It's one thing if you're going through the naturalization process and intend to become a citizen. It's another when you're here partaking of resources and not following the rules.

] 3. They arrested enough people to cause a scare, so if they
] run a similar program in another state there will be a large
] number of people who would otherwise have shown up who will
] not show up because they are afraid (maybe they have a traffic
] warrant out). The result is that if the intent is to observe
] who doesn't show, than these efforts will be LESS EFFECTIVE in
] the future because of the arrests. If the government is crafty
] enough to run this as a decoy, then they are crafty enough to
] make sure they don't ruin its usefulness for this purpose in
] the future.

see above. If anything, I think this was a tactic to get people to start coming TO the INS, instead of the INS having to spend resources that it doesn't have to go AFTER offenders.

] 4. All they had to do with the people who had paper work
] problems is give them an opportunity to fix things. This would
] serve the purpose of stirring up the community enough to
] notice the odd man out, it would get the INS paperwork in
] order, and INS ends up looking like someone you can trust.

now who's overestimating our government bureaucrats?! INS is run about as well as the IRS. It's a mountain of garbage. Proof positive that you actually can screw things up so badly that it is impossible to fix. Frankly, they probably ran across a high percentage of people that their db's weren't even aware of or incomplete.

] 5. Not showing up is a pre-tense for deportation of registered
] aliens. People are afraid to show cause they'll get poped for
] a traffic warrant, and now the feds have a reason to deport
] them.

oh well.

] 6. Basically, the simplest explanation is that this is a
] fishing expedition. They can't haul the whole community in for
] questioning directly, but they've found a loophole that lets
] them net at least a quarter of the community.

I agree with that. I also think that it served its purpose to get aliens to be more proactive with their interaction with INS, lest they get popped. I also think this was a diversion to attract attention to the masses, while the real news is how some folks got 'taken away by a black van right off the street.'

] 7. The use of force beyond necessity is the definition of
] tyranny. (See 4.)

Who's to say whether it was necessary or not.

flynn23 wrote:
] I think you missed my point. While all this is going on, you
] don't think they've grabbed a couple of suspects or
] ne'er-do-wells and hauled them off for questioning? A good
] diversion is always a great tactic to hide when you're going
] to do something really nasty.

If that was the plan then they wouldn't have arrested so many people, because doing so will make this tactic less effective in
the future. If you want to create distractions, you ought to create ones that people are likely to go to.

] ] 1. I don't have a problem with the round up, only with the
] ] arrests.
]
] well, they were illegal. Frankly, it's about time that the INS
] actually did their job of policing non-citizens.

Thats the thing. They weren't illegals. A few might have been. Most were not. You don't voluntarily show up for an INS round up if you don't have a visa. Furthermore, failing to file a change of address form, or having a traffic warrant, no more makes you an "illegal alien" then a typo on your W-2 makes you guilty of "tax fraud." Many people were arrested for things that had absolutely no relationship to INS law.

] I think it's about time they started caring. It's one thing if
] you're going through the naturalization process and intend to
] become a citizen. It's another when you're here partaking of
] resources and not following the rules.

These people voluntarily showed up to be counted. They are trying to comply. Furthermore, if INS "cared" about compliance they would have asked for the women and children to show up too.

This country has conservative immigration policies and relatively poor social services. If you live in northern mexico it might seem like a good place to go "partake of resources" because its the only available option. People who come here from over-seas have a different set of goals. There are several options available to them that are easier to immigrate to and provide easier "resources" to partake in. What people are looking for in coming here is a good education, a good credit system, and a strong economy. They are looking for a place that doesn't have systemic barriers to their making meaningful contributions and living full lives. They are doctors, lawyers, engineers, students, and businessmen. They aren't migrant workers. You can't get in from overseas if you're a migrant worker.

] ] 4. All they had to do with the people who had paper work
] ] problems is give them an opportunity to fix things. This
] would
] ] serve the purpose of stirring up the community enough to
] ] notice the odd man out, it would get the INS paperwork in
] ] order, and INS ends up looking like someone you can trust.
]
] now who's overestimating our government bureaucrats?! INS is
] run about as well as the IRS. It's a mountain of garbage.

You said it. Now tell me what part of having difficulty dealing with that mountain of garbage makes you an "illegal alien."

] Who's to say whether it was necessary or not.

Is this the least forceful means of reaching the stated goal of getting the INS records in order? I think its obvious that it
isn't.

flynn23 wrote:
] well, they were illegal. Frankly, it's about time that the INS
] actually did their job of policing non-citizens.

Decius already made the point, but I'll reiterate: They weren't illegal. The rules simply said if you were between certain ages, from certain countries, and had entered the country after Sep. 30, 2001. That's it. You could be on a student visa, tourist visa, no visa, it doesn't matter.

They handed out flyers to this effect on the UC Davis campus in Sacramento, CA. I have a friend who is a student there who received one and sent a copy via e-mail.

It's quite likely that legitimate students (and others) here with legitimate visas made legitimate mistakes (not sending a change of address by accident or ignorance) and were put in jail.

Personally, I call that a terrible injustice and reflective of a right-wing reactionary government that's tottering on the brink of fascism.