Decius wrote:
The last time I ran linux on my desktop, it had the following problems:

1. It didn't really work right. It sort of worked, but not really. Things were broken. Things weren't well supported.

2. It came with WAY, WAY too much shit by default.

3. Things needed to be screwed with a lot. A lot of tinkering, a lot of configuring and compiling and updating. Systems Administration. I want basic shit to just work. I have work to do. I want to get it done. My computer should enable that. The reason I'm sick of my mac is that its getting in the way.

What distribution were you using? For "basic shit to just work," I like using SimplyMEPIS. It's not Debian, but it's not supposed to be... it's for users, like myself, who are NOT Linux gurus. It does come bundled with several open source applications, but I don't consider that to be a negative. I still haven't tried Ubuntu, though, which seems to be quite popular with those who know a lot more about Linux than I.

Decius wrote:
Is there anyone on MemeStreams who regularly uses linux on their desktop?

I've used Linux as my main desktop OS for about 4 years now. I'd used Mandrake/Mandriva for years, and just recently switch to Ubuntu.

I'd recommend Ubuntu: It's Linux for people who want to run a Unix box without having to admin a Unix box. You have a solid desktop experience out of the box without a lot of buggy I-just-learn-C++-and-QT apps. I've got a fairly stock setup with some extra applications installed (like a 3D desktop). I mainly use standard desktop apps like:

-beagle (desktop search)
-Firefox,
-Thunderbird
-The Gimp
-GVim
-amarok (iTunes on crack)
-Open Office

Ubuntu is just a good fit for my usage. I need something solid and stable. I need RAIDed hardrives and automated backups. I need automatic security updates. I need a variety of web browsers for my work. I need different web servers with various modules. I need support for my iPod. I need something to help me index and store massive quantities of data relating to my research projects. I use databases. I need to be able to connect remotely. I need a VPN client and remote desktop client for work.

Occasionally I am pained by not having a good Visio clone (especially with all the clipart I make for presentations and books), but its not a big deal.

that sucks man. sorry to hear it.

Decius wrote:
The hard drive, as well, has a small metal tray attached to it with "security screws." I have no idea where my "security" bitset went.

Which ones are "security"... not Torx, I assume, since everyone's got those. If you do manage to get the drive out, I have a USB enclosure for laptop drives.

As for linux as a main machine, the last time i did it (granted 3 or so years ago now), there was a HUGE difference between linux on a desktop machine and on a laptop. by their nature, laptops are a different beast, and the hardware support was, as you imply, wonky at best.

the too much shit issue is usually configurable, at least on the distros i used, where you could (usually! see below) install and uninstall and choose packages with a pretty decent gui.

I'm fucking sure it's still ugly as sin (unless a new Enlightenment has come out since then, which is doubtful given raster's release schedule [e.g. never]). And I'm even more sure that it's still a fucking maintenance headache. I can't even contemplate how many times i HAD TO recompile my kernel in the years i used linux without becoming enraged. Most often X would just flake out, periodically, and without warning stop working at all. XF86Config, i typed thee sooo many times. And god forbid i should want to do something like use some new fonts in a graphics app. Jesus, that was the End of Things. And by "Things" i mean "everything i had planned to do for the next week". Occasionally some nice circular dependencies in the installer packages made life fun, like Mike's adventure where he couldn't upgrade libc (which is, well, *sorta* important) because the installed version depended on itself or something. The system wouldn't remove it and couldn't upgrade it. If i recall, the ensuing shenanigans eventually resulted in a reinstall from a new distro checkpoint... possibly after rendering the system unbootable.

I have very little reason to suspect that any of these issues are more than marginally better than they were in 2004.

Linux as a real user system is a romantic notion, and one i pursued for a long time (i used linux almost 100% for personal machines from 1998-ish through 2004), but i'll have to see some impressive fucking success stories before i even go back down that dark path.

I'm genuinely sorry about your Mac woes... my G4 powerbook is still going strong with only one notable issue, being a recall-covered screen problem (the white ghosts, caused by uneven pressure behind the LCD), and i've dropped it about 4 or 5 times, a couple times from desk height. I reckon I'm already on borrowed time, based on that. Needless to say i'm fairly backup crazy these days as the machine ages, but I can't say enough about the thing's reliability. I have, otoh, known others who had recurrent problems, partic. with the mobo. Perhaps i'm Captain Lucky.

I certainly agree about the macbook keyboard, that thing is fucked top to bottom, though still better than most keyboards, sadly.

[EDIT] Seeing the other posts, I can only hope that my vitriolic rant above turns out to look stupid, because it sounds like maybe Ubuntu or someone has finally got it right. I'm still not holding my breath, but I suppose it's not impossible that that shit works.

Ubuntu isn't that bad, Firefox, Evolution (email client) and Open Office are very nice. I ran Ubuntu in Parallels on OS X for awhile and liked it. Ubuntu will get the job done but it does not have the polished look you would expect in a 2007 app. I think other "home apps" could use improvement - photo editor, mp3 manager, video manager. Most linux apps are ugly, IMHO.

Get one of the new color Dell's (black looks cool) that supports Ubuntu and you can get in-home hardware replacement (next business day - after you talk to the support guy in India or Argentina over a shitty VoIP connection) including a laptop. Dell has done a good job at building a support infrastructure to do these on-site hardware replacements. I have been impressed when I had to use them. Apple should use this same support model.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu

System76 looks like they have a full hardware (laptop, desktop, server) offering with Ubuntu. I am not sure of System76 operational hardware support model though. Will Dell or someone else eat their lunch in the market for Linux based systems? Will they be around next year? who knows.. But they are worth looking at and asking them a few questions.

http://www.system76.com/

BTW, Here is a better Linux IM client (it is not as ugly).

http://pidgin.im/pidgin/about/

So to recap your questions:

1. Better corporate based hardware support to Linux is available even on laptops now.

2. Ubuntu has done a better job at asking: what are the core apps that need to be on the desktop. The other options is to just install the OS with only what you need. Easy problem to solve.

3. I 1000% agree with you on getting work done vs. supporting or managing the system. I think you are going to run into this with any OS you run and not likely to go away any time soon. Pick your poison.

4. There are better IM clients now than ugly GAIM. See above.

You can always get Vista and turn on all the eye candy and repeat: this is OS X, this is OS X, this is OS X. j/k

Decius wrote:

The last time I ran linux on my desktop, it had the following problems:

1. It didn't really work right. It sort of worked, but not really. Things were broken. Things weren't well supported. Things like the mouse. It actually didn't click exactly where it pointed some of the time. And this was an IBM laptop. Not something oddball. And some hardware was tweaky... like wifi adapters that had to be unplugged and replugged sometimes in order to reload the drivers.

2. It came with WAY, WAY too much shit by default. Every jackass who had ever written an open source GUI application had managed to get it placed in the default menu.

3. Things needed to be screwed with a lot. A lot of tinkering, a lot of configuring and compiling and updating. Systems Administration. People who run linux desktops like to configure stuff and seem to enjoy applications like mutt that are way too feature rich and are basically useless if you don't want to invest a few hours into getting them to work right. I don't want to do that. I want basic shit to just work. I have work to do. I want to get it done. My computer should enable that. The reason I'm sick of my mac is that its getting in the way.

4. Firefox was fine, everything else was crummy. The IM clients were just downright ugly.

Decius wrote:
Is there anyone on MemeStreams who regularly uses linux on their desktop?

Been running Ubuntu as a desktop for a little over a year. It "just works" as far as I can tell, and I've mostly always preferred Microsoft Windows over Linux for usability.

If you're looking for a laptop, I suggest pricing a Dell Inspiron 1520. That's what I'm about to get, later today actually I go ahead and order it. Getting a 2.2 ghz Core 2 Duo w/2 gig of memory and a 160 gig HD, 15.4" widescreen and discrete Nvidia graphics for less than $1200. No way you could get that deal in Mac land.

Dell's also thrown their hat into the Ubuntu ring, with some reservation, but it's still there.

Good luck finding a new laptop computing experience. I've always thought the Mac world was uber hip, swanky, useful, nice to use, etc. Just have never found the stomach to get locked into one company like that.

Hijexx wrote:

Decius wrote:
Is there anyone on MemeStreams who regularly uses linux on their desktop?

Been running Ubuntu as a desktop for a little over a year. It "just works" as far as I can tell, and I've mostly always preferred Microsoft Windows over Linux for usability.

If you're looking for a laptop, I suggest pricing a Dell Inspiron 1520. That's what I'm about to get, later today actually I go ahead and order it. Getting a 2.2 ghz Core 2 Duo w/2 gig of memory and a 160 gig HD, 15.4" widescreen and discrete Nvidia graphics for less than $1200. No way you could get that deal in Mac land.

Dell's also thrown their hat into the Ubuntu ring, with some reservation, but it's still there.

Good luck finding a new laptop computing experience. I've always thought the Mac world was uber hip, swanky, useful, nice to use, etc. Just have never found the stomach to get locked into one company like that.

Looks like someone's selling a Toughbook on Craigslist that might be able to survive Decius's beer baths. :)

ROCKY II LAPTOP. MILITARY/POLICE TOUGHBOOK - $100

RE: Desktop Linux

Dagmar wrote:

Looks like someone's selling a Toughbook on Craigslist that might be able to survive Decius's beer baths. :)

ROCKY II LAPTOP. MILITARY/POLICE TOUGHBOOK - $100

Heheh, I was going to suggest the Toughbook to him actually as a joke :) The boy is hard on some gear...

Decius wrote:
Is there anyone on MemeStreams who regularly uses linux on their desktop?

i've played with a mac, an old quicksilver which i have server 10.4.9 running -- dns etc is a joy to configure
i've got a machine running suse, ubuntu server, ubuntu desktop
i like to play and experiment with stuff
but i always come back to my windows xp box, it doesn't crash, i don't need to go onto the command line or fix permissions and i can strip it down as i did on monday completely removing all the hard drives, optical drives and the mother board so i could do my biannual clean since it vacuums up all the ambient dust in my living room
i know the world hates M$
but i like things that work
i like open source i surf on firefox and run apache with mysql on my windows box as a test resource
and safari (which i've a feeling is still in beta for windows) will be available soon
i wouldn't run windows as a server but for a desktop it does exactly what it says on the tin
i know that wasn't exactly the question but having dipped my toe in different waters that is my current opinion -- not cool or techie or fashionable but frankly fuck that

I'd like to say something here... but I'm not going to because of a superstitious fear that my apartment would instantly explode the second I do.

Decius wrote:
Are these problems still the dominating factors of the world of desktop linux?

Screw Dell! Use your sweet employee discount to get one of these.

Decius wrote:
The last time I ran linux on my desktop, it had the following problems:

1. It didn't really work right. It sort of worked, but not really. Things were broken. Things weren't well supported. Things like the mouse. It actually didn't click exactly where it pointed some of the time. And this was an IBM laptop. Not something oddball. And some hardware was tweaky... like wifi adapters that had to be unplugged and replugged sometimes in order to reload the drivers.

2. It came with WAY, WAY too much shit by default. Every jackass who had ever written an open source GUI application had managed to get it placed in the default menu.

3. Things needed to be screwed with a lot. A lot of tinkering, a lot of configuring and compiling and updating. Systems Administration. People who run linux desktops like to configure stuff and seem to enjoy applications like mutt that are way too feature rich and are basically useless if you don't want to invest a few hours into getting them to work right. I don't want to do that. I want basic shit to just work. I have work to do. I want to get it done. My computer should enable that. The reason I'm sick of my mac is that its getting in the way.

4. Firefox was fine, everything else was crummy. The IM clients were just downright ugly.

Are these problems still the dominating factors of the world of desktop linux?

Ok, a few comments.

First, there is a quality difference between the iBook and MacBook line. I've been using the 17" Powerbook line for several years, and have encountered very few problem. Mine has survived beer in the keyboard. However, I do not like the fact that I don't have a backup machine. One thing I liked about using the IBM ThinkPads was how you could rip out the hard drive and put it into another machine in about 45 seconds. When we were doing the Asia thing, I always had a spare laptop in my luggage, and I was always able to work around any hardware or software failure without obstructing my ability to do work. Apple's insistence on making anything other than putting in ram hard is highly annoying.

Second, I have not been using a linux notebook in awhile, so I'm unfamiliar with the current state of many apps. I've been meaning to try out Ubantu, because I've heard good things about it. In Linux's favor, it's very easy to manage backup, it's stable as hell, and when doing what I'd consider "real work", it's great. It's really nice to be able to put just about any server or database application on the machine you need to work with. When it comes to doing any kinda operational engineering, it's a huge time saver.

Like Billy was saying, I too miss the lack of a really good drawing program.. I don't think there is a good outliner yet either.

Thirdly, if you get a PC laptop.. Just make sure to buy one that is designed to support Linux, so you have less headaches to deal with.

I love my iBook, but it is in the shop every 9 or 10 months. This is still better than the Sony Viao I had that had a battery, hard drive, and motherboard failure within 10 days of the warrantee ending.

Anyway, after your AppleCare warrantee wears out, I recommend a company called TechRestore. They have fixed five or six laptops for myself and friends. They are a small company, maybe only three people, but every time I have been able to overnight my laptop, get it fixed, and have it overnighted back.

Your mileage may vary. Good hunting.

Decius wrote:
Is there anyone on MemeStreams who regularly uses linux on their desktop?

I have to use Windows every day at work. There is something nice about my home computing environment being a little more slick. I like being able to open a unix command prompt. I like the design subtleties of my mac. Its pleasant to use. But I think it may be time to part ways.

I'm tired of Apple. My first mac, an iBook, had a problem where the screen would "go fuzzy" and require a motherboard replacement. This would happen annually, sometimes twice a year. For a while, Apple replaced the motherboards for free, but every time this occured, it involved a week without a machine. Once it also involved a computer which came back with a completely new hard drive. All my data was gone. Clearly, Apple never got to the root cause of the problem, as it kept happening over and over again. Eventually, last summer, Apple said they wouldn't replace the motherboard for free anymore, and their price was in excess of $1000. I had no choice but to buy a new computer.

So I bought a Macbook. I knew it was going to be trouble, but I did it anyway. It was nice for while.

About a month ago I spilled some beer on it. Obviously, my fault. Not like my prior problem. However, these things do happen to laptops and laptops ought to be designed with that in mind.

Instantly, one of the design flaws of the MacBook that I knew would be a problem going in reared its ugly head: There is no way to remove the keyboard. Keyboards get nasty. They get dirty. They do not last as long as the rest of a laptop. Good laptops are designed to make them easy to replace. But not the macbook. Its keyboard is embedded into the system. Its hard to remove and hard to clean. You have a problem with it, you have to send the system in for service.

After 24 hours of drying out, the keyboard didn't work, and so I figured it was going in for service. Fortunately, after a few more days of drying out the keyboard miraculously recovered. Worked fine. Worked fine for a while, anyway. Eventually the mouse started sticking. This got worse and worse over time until last week, when the mouse simply stopped working altogether.

Having no simple way to take the computer apart, my theory was that dust had collected to stickiness in the mouse, and that if I removed the battery and literally sprayed some water on the trackpad and then gave it a few days to dry out, it would likely be fine. This was a stupid idea. I should have SSHed into the thing and cleared out my data first. But I didn't. Again, my fault, not Apple's.

The computer isn't fine. I must have shorted something against the clock battery (which is basically impossible to access) and fried a motherboard component. There is gunk in the computer which might be capacitor guts. I'm fucked.

The reason its hard to get inside the macbook is that it has 27 screws which must be removed. The... [ Read More (0.5k in body) ]