Acidus wrote:
Vista: You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
PC: ... ... allow.

Hi, I'm a Mac, and I don't have any security problems because I don't have any customers. No one bothers to write exploits for me. I'm so lonely... So lonely.... Stupid PCs...

Decius wrote:

Acidus wrote:
Vista: You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
PC: ... ... allow.

Hi, I'm a Mac, and I don't have any security problems because I don't have any customers. No one bothers to write exploits for me. I'm so lonely... So lonely.... Stupid PCs...

Decius wrote:

Acidus wrote:
Vista: You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
PC: ... ... allow.

Hi, I'm a Mac, and I don't have any security problems because I don't have any customers. No one bothers to write exploits for me. I'm so lonely... So lonely.... Stupid PCs...

[ This same old battle? Shame on you. Maybe we should start wrangling over linux distros now. ;) -k]

k wrote:

Decius wrote:

Acidus wrote:
Vista: You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
PC: ... ... allow.

Hi, I'm a Mac, and I don't have any security problems because I don't have any customers. No one bothers to write exploits for me. I'm so lonely... So lonely.... Stupid PCs...

[ This same old battle? Shame on you. Maybe we should start wrangling over linux distros now. ;) -k]

Shame on me?! They started it! I seriously don't think Apple should be taking shots at Vista security in their ads. The reason that Mac users don't experience security problems really is because their userbase is too small to be of interest to organized crime. Apple doesn't understand how to deal with these kinds of problems; their security engineering is terrible. Microsoft has invested a huge amount of resources into this and presently they are way, way more sophisticated at it. Its really amateurish for Apple to sit on the sidelines and throw stones. If you're curious about Apple security read this presentation.

Decius wrote:
Shame on me?! They started it! I seriously don't think Apple should be taking shots at Vista security in their ads.

Maybe not. Maybe Vista is the magical secure wonderland we've all been hoping for. I haven't used it yet, and I'm in no position to comment on it's security capabilities. I was being a little tounge in cheek with my comment, but lightly goading tones aren't easy to convey on the interweb.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of the ad either, primarily because it leads to debates the end up far less erudite than this one has been. Jackasses all over the internet calling each other fucktards back and forth doesn't solve much.

So, thanks for posting some actual resources regarding real security analysis; that's what elevates the dialogue and makes it worth having. It's probably true that the average mac user doesn't do a lot of things that would make their system more secure. At the same time, being hyper paranoid about security tends to make systems less usable. Maybe that shouldn't be the case anymore, but seems like it is to me. Apple's made a decision to make the systems usable as a compromise for some security, which isn't likely to be a problem because they know they've a small user base.

So it's hard for me to get worked up about. *Should* Apple be spending more time actually making sure their os is secure instead of pointlessly sniping MS? Yes, absolutely. Is it likely to bite me in the ass anytime soon? Well, no, probably not.

I'll concede this one, but with the caveat that secure or not, a mac user's still not as likely to have a security compromise at the end of the day.

k wrote:

Decius wrote:
Shame on me?! They started it! I seriously don't think Apple should be taking shots at Vista security in their ads.

Maybe not. Maybe Vista is the magical secure wonderland we've all been hoping for. I haven't used it yet, and I'm in no position to comment on it's security capabilities. I was being a little tounge in cheek with my comment, but lightly goading tones aren't easy to convey on the interweb.

Anyway, I'm not a fan of the ad either, primarily because it leads to debates the end up far less erudite than this one has been. Jackasses all over the internet calling each other fucktards back and forth doesn't solve much.

So, thanks for posting some actual resources regarding real security analysis; that's what elevates the dialogue and makes it worth having. It's probably true that the average mac user doesn't do a lot of things that would make their system more secure. At the same time, being hyper paranoid about security tends to make systems less usable. Maybe that shouldn't be the case anymore, but seems like it is to me. Apple's made a decision to make the systems usable as a compromise for some security, which isn't likely to be a problem because they know they've a small user base.

So it's hard for me to get worked up about. *Should* Apple be spending more time actually making sure their os is secure instead of pointlessly sniping MS? Yes, absolutely. Is it likely to bite me in the ass anytime soon? Well, no, probably not.

I'll concede this one, but with the caveat that secure or not, a mac user's still not as likely to have a security compromise at the end of the day.

I think the ad does show Vista to have more security. But at the sacrifice of ease of use and freedom. There has to be a middle ground of security which isn't Boston, but i don't think a GUI has quite gotten there yet.

k wrote:
Maybe Vista is the magical secure wonderland we've all been hoping for.

Its not. But its better than OSX.

lightly goading tones aren't easy to convey on the interweb.

Nod...

*Should* Apple be spending more time actually making sure their os is secure instead of pointlessly sniping MS? Yes, absolutely. Is it likely to bite me in the ass anytime soon? Well, no, probably not.

There are some simple things that Apple could be doing better, such as requiring that you enter your password for all, and not just some, application installs. (Requiring it for just some gives you all of the hassle of having to enter your password with none of the benefits!) But I agree that huge investments in this aren't warranted when you aren't getting targetted, and I agree that mac users are generally less likely to get owned in practice right now.

All I'm saying is that Apple shouldn't be making fun of the security features in Vista. Their security, from a technical perspective, is far worse. Its like calling soldiers in Iraq pussies because they wear body armor. Someday, some worm is gunna rip up the mac world and all kinds of people are going to be screaming bloody murder at Apple, who has literally convinced their customers that they are totally impenetrable to attack and that Microsoft's security problems are somehow due to incompetence on their part.

Decius wrote:

k wrote:
Maybe Vista is the magical secure wonderland we've all been hoping for.

Its not. But its better than OSX.

lightly goading tones aren't easy to convey on the interweb.

Nod...

*Should* Apple be spending more time actually making sure their os is secure instead of pointlessly sniping MS? Yes, absolutely. Is it likely to bite me in the ass anytime soon? Well, no, probably not.

There are some simple things that Apple could be doing better, such as requiring that you enter your password for all, and not just some, application installs. (Requiring it for just some gives you all of the hassle of having to enter your password with none of the benefits!) But I agree that huge investments in this aren't warranted when you aren't getting targetted, and I agree that mac users are generally less likely to get owned in practice right now.

All I'm saying is that Apple shouldn't be making fun of the security features in Vista. Their security, from a technical perspective, is far worse. Its like calling soldiers in Iraq pussies because they wear body armor. Someday, some worm is gunna rip up the mac world and all kinds of people are going to be screaming bloody murder at Apple, who has literally convinced their customers that they are totally impenetrable to attack and that Microsoft's security problems are somehow due to incompetence on their part.

Then should we not be making fun of Boston?

terratogen wrote:
Then should we not be making fun of Boston?

I don't know if you are being serious. Through a series of different advertisements Apple has created the impression that their computers are not vulnerable to attack. This is both incorrect and irresponsible.

The dialog boxes that this ad pokes fun at are designed to provide the user with knowledge of and control over which applications are issuing network transactions. There are probably better ways to design that control from a UI standpoint, but they are not a totally silly idea. In OSX not only do you not have such control, but the user interface actually lies to you and tells you that you have control that you do not have.

Ultimately, I'd agree that if you were the operator of a fake bomb squad with a bunch of card board cutouts that were supposed to look like vehicles and police officers, and you were operating this fake bomb squad in a small town in Kansas, and you went on television and said "Look at how stupid Boston's bomb squad is! Here in Bumfuck, Kansas we don't have a problem with bombs. Our bomb squad is totally awesome!" you'd be an obnoxious jerk. Thats not the same thing as saying Boston's bomb squad is beyond criticism. Its just that you'd have no right to be the person doing that criticism.

Decius wrote:
Ultimately, I'd agree that if you were the operator of a fake bomb squad with a bunch of card board cutouts that were supposed to look like vehicles and police officers, and you were operating this fake bomb squad in a small town in Kansas, and you went on television and said "Look at how stupid Boston's bomb squad is! Here in Bumfuck, Kansas we don't have a problem with bombs. Our bomb squad is totally awesome!" you'd be an obnoxious jerk. Thats not the same thing as saying Boston's bomb squad is beyond criticism. Its just that you'd have no right to be the person doing that criticism.

In terms of how great the security is I agree. But in terms of how the UI should work I think the endless barrage of interrupting dialog windows is worth criticizing. Little Snitch for mac works in a similar way, but it's not as tetchy. Security is important, but when the attitude is, "WELL FINE! Here's your damn security!!!" and you lock down everything that can be locked down to make the computer a bureaucratic mess I think the level of protection doesn't match the level of threat. For many contexts, it will be overkill and obnoxious.

Apple bragging about its lack of security attacks is more arrogant than obnoxious. "Mac Os X... Security through Market Position!" Mac's best security feature is the lack of yield for cyber criminals for the amount of work involved. It's certainly security made from invisible thread, but it's apparently still more effective than real logical security. For Mac to raise the bar to the Vista level of intrusiveness, it would be more an instance of paranoia than security because no one is really after Mac yet(yet being key). Someone will be hurt by this eventually. More people might be hurt by the failures of Vista's well thought out architected security in the mean time. Therefore even though Mac has less security it has drastically less risk which provides security through irony.

terratogen wrote:
But in terms of how the UI should work I think the endless barrage of interrupting dialog windows is worth criticizing.

I think the right way to do this is to pop up a window in the corner that fades away, and whitelist a bunch of stuff that is known to be ok, such as popular IM programs, games, etc... They could certainly do this in a less obtrusive way.

Acidus wrote:
Vista: You are coming to a sad realization, cancel or allow?
PC: ... ... allow.

Oh-ho-ho, but the fun doesn't stop there!

Vista Security: "You are pointing out Vista's flaws. Cancel or allow?"

PC: "Allow."

*BZZZZZT!*

Sorry, but publicly pointing out Vista's flaws without the prior, express written consent of Microsoft is forbidden by PC's End User Licence Agreement to run Vista, and summarily invalidates his licence to continue doing so! He's damn lucky the guy with the shades didn't just pull out a .45cal and shoot him point blank in the stamper.