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This page contains all of the posts and discussion on MemeStreams referencing the following web page: Moderate Europeans losing faith in Islam - muslims, europe, eu, islam - Europe - International Herald Tribune. You can find discussions on MemeStreams as you surf the web, even if you aren't a MemeStreams member, using the Threads Bookmarklet.

Moderate Europeans losing faith in Islam - muslims, europe, eu, islam - Europe - International Herald Tribune
by ubernoir at 10:47 am EDT, Oct 11, 2006

Europe appears to be crossing an invisible line regarding its Muslim minorities: More people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values.

the article seems to articulate the spectre of that terrible stage and precursor to a larger conflagration the collapse of the center
this stage has been noted in the English and French Civil War/Revolutions - not that I believe things will escalate to that extent but it is certainly an indiction that certainly in Europe with our relatively large Muslim populations the level of violence is going to rise considerably before it starts to subside - I think it will be a relative level of violence rather than any sort an insurgancy

The collapse of the center is a dangerous sign - we need bridge builders not bridge demolishion. In this context Jack Straw's recent contribution is entirely negitive.

Dyab Abou Jahjah, a Lebanese-born activist in Belgium, said that for years Europeans had emphasized "citizenship and human rights," the notion that Muslim immigrants had the responsibility to obey the law but could otherwise live with their traditions.

"Then someone comes and says it's different than that," said Jahjah, who opposes assimilation. "You have to dump your culture and religion. It's a different deal now."

I also think it is wrong to "oppose assimilation" - we must ask what assimilation means - both sides must be prepared to compromise - we must find ways that communities can live side by side - some areas of my city are predominantly white European and some are predominantly Asian (I know in America you call people from South-East Asia or China Asian but in Britain if someone is referred to as Asian or as British-Asian then it means they are from or are 1st or 2nd generation desendants of people from the Asian sub-continent). There are probably few streets which aren't racially and culturally mixed at least to some extent.
We must hold the center through dialogue and compromise. Muslim women should no more be expected to reject the veil than male Hasidic Jews should be expected to cut off their locks. People must be free to express a distinctive cultural identity. Similarly Muslims can protest against the publication of the Danish cartoons but must understand that we have a free press and perceived insults to Islam must be tolerated. If a line is crossed and it becomes racist abuse then there are legal avenues which can be pursued. All communities have their red lines (issues about which they can not or will not compromise) which is natural but it is not wise for either community to be too rigid and declare too frequently "thus far and no further".


 
RE: Moderate Europeans losing faith in Islam - muslims, europe, eu, islam - Europe - International Herald Tribune
by flynn23 at 1:04 pm EDT, Oct 12, 2006

adam wrote:

Europe appears to be crossing an invisible line regarding its Muslim minorities: More people in the political mainstream are arguing that Islam cannot be reconciled with European values.

the article seems to articulate the spectre of that terrible stage and precursor to a larger conflagration the collapse of the center
this stage has been noted in the English and French Civil War/Revolutions - not that I believe things will escalate to that extent but it is certainly an indiction that certainly in Europe with our relatively large Muslim populations the level of violence is going to rise considerably before it starts to subside - I think it will be a relative level of violence rather than any sort an insurgancy

The collapse of the center is a dangerous sign - we need bridge builders not bridge demolishion. In this context Jack Straw's recent contribution is entirely negitive.

Dyab Abou Jahjah, a Lebanese-born activist in Belgium, said that for years Europeans had emphasized "citizenship and human rights," the notion that Muslim immigrants had the responsibility to obey the law but could otherwise live with their traditions.

"Then someone comes and says it's different than that," said Jahjah, who opposes assimilation. "You have to dump your culture and religion. It's a different deal now."

I also think it is wrong to "oppose assimilation" - we must ask what assimilation means - both sides must be prepared to compromise - we must find ways that communities can live side by side - some areas of my city are predominantly white European and some are predominantly Asian (I know in America you call people from South-East Asia or China Asian but in Britain if someone is referred to as Asian or as British-Asian then it means they are from or are 1st or 2nd generation desendants of people from the Asian sub-continent). There are probably few streets which aren't racially and culturally mixed at least to some extent.
We must hold the center through dialogue and compromise. Muslim women should no more be expected to reject the veil than male Hasidic Jews should be expected to cut off their locks. People must be free to express a distinctive cultural identity. Similarly Muslims can protest against the publication of the Danish cartoons but must understand that we have a free press and perceived insults to Islam must be tolerated. If a line is crossed and it becomes racist abuse then there are legal avenues which can be pursued. All communities have their red lines (issues about which they can not or will not compromise) which is natural but it is not wise for either community to be too rigid and declare too frequently "thus far and no further".

Ian Bremmer's book, The J Curve talks a lot about this dynamic and how it's essentially unavoidable in a free society until the fundamentalism is rooted out of minorities within the culture. And Dr. Fergeson's book goes on to detail how the West is basically a sitting duck for more conflict for the next 20+ years due to this dynamic. He profers that the East, with their far more integrated and less 'melting pot' cultures, will dominate.


 
 
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