Decius wrote:

I am sorry to inform all interested parties that Red Rose Stories is a DEAD site.

The FBI has suceeded in closing me down.

I am being charged with 'OBSCENITIES' and face charges for having posted fantasy stories.

They are trying to say fantasy stories are illegal.

The men in black (FBI) took ALL of my computer equipment, and many of my diskettes,
and have access to ALL my files and site information. They came when I was NOT home and seized my belongings, I had no choice, and no recourse.

BoingBoing seems to be providing coverage of a number of cases. This one is key. My understanding is that the stories on this site were, ehm, perhaps a bit over the top. Certainly not the sort of writing one would recommend in polite company, or even, perhaps, in impolite company.

Nevertheless, they are just stories. They aren't pictures. They aren't movies. They are written stories. They are someone's thoughts. If it can be a crime to publish these stories then the only appropriate name for that sort of crime is thoughtcrime. This person's house has been raided for sharing inappropriate thoughts.

Ask your Republican friends who claim to advocate a strict constructionalist jurisprudence to explain how this is consistent with a literal reading of the first amendment.

Boingboing indicating that this site had stories about sex with children... I'm not exactly feeling like championing this as an example of the new war on pron, myself.

Jello wrote:
Boingboing indicating that this site had stories about sex with children... I'm not exactly feeling like championing this as an example of the new war on pron, myself.

Civil liberties aren't about stuff that you like. Stuff that you like doesn't need to be protected. Freedom of speech is about speech you don't like. As I said, from what I've read this site wasn't the sort of thing that you'd really want to read. In fact I'm sure that there are some really bad people associated with it. That is very much not important. It doesn't matter who, it matters why. What is important is that they've raided someone for writing stories. Stories don't exploit people. They are expressions of thought. Even if you really really don't like them, they are expressions of thought.

If you beleive that people ought to have the freedom to determine for themselves what they want to think, and to express those thoughts if they wish, then this case ought to be a problem for you. Its a litmus test, so to speak. If you don't think that these people ought to be able to do what they are doing, then you really don't beleive that people ought to have the freedom to determine their own thoughts. If you don't have the stomach to oppose this, then you don't really get what freedom of speech is all about.

It ought to be obvious that right out of the gate the FBI isn't going to start rounding up beat poets. They haven't enforced these laws in years. They are going to start with some cases that they think are easy wins. Furthermore, this site may have been valuable because the owner seems to indicate that they may have had personally identifying information about members. Its a big laundry list of people to check out. Maybe they'll find a real criminal on the list.

But put this in context. I don't mean to raise this site as a poster child for whats wrong with this sort of effort. However, its worth noting that this has actually started, and its worth noting where it is headed. They will build upon initial successes to pursue more ambitious cases. This case creates a framework wherein communities of people who are merely using the internet to communicate thoughts may find their computer systems confiscated and the government may be able to go through the membership lists and inprison the owners. Because of what they think. That framework is a problem, and if it is allowed to take hold and blossom it threatens all kinds of things that you DO like, including sites like this one.

The next time Vile shows up and spews a bunch of intentionally offensive crap at someone he doesn't like do I need to be worried that the FBI will shut the site down? No, but that day may be coming, and it makes sense to be aware that it is much closer now then it used to be.

First they came for the communists...

Decius wrote:

Jello wrote:
Boingboing indicating that this site had stories about sex with children... I'm not exactly feeling like championing this as an example of the new war on pron, myself.

Civil liberties aren't about stuff that you like. Stuff that you like doesn't need to be protected. Freedom of speech is about speech you don't like. As I said, from what I've read this site wasn't the sort of thing that you'd really want to read. In fact I'm sure that there are some really bad people associated with it. That is very much not important. It doesn't matter who, it matters why. What is important is that they've raided someone for writing stories. Stories don't exploit people. They are expressions of thought. Even if you really really don't like them, they are expressions of thought.

If you beleive that people ought to have the freedom to determine for themselves what they want to think, and to express those thoughts if they wish, then this case ought to be a problem for you. Its a litmus test, so to speak. If you don't think that these people ought to be able to do what they are doing, then you really don't beleive that people ought to have the freedom to determine their own thoughts. If you don't have the stomach to oppose this, then you don't really get what freedom of speech is all about.

It ought to be obvious that right out of the gate the FBI isn't going to start rounding up beat poets. They haven't enforced these laws in years. They are going to start with some cases that they think are easy wins. Furthermore, this site may have been valuable because the owner seems to indicate that they may have had personally identifying information about members. Its a big laundry list of people to check out. Maybe they'll find a real criminal on the list.

But put this in context. I don't mean to raise this site as a poster child for whats wrong with this sort of effort. However, its worth noting that this has actually started, and its worth noting where it is headed. They will build upon initial successes to pursue more ambitious cases. This case creates a framework wherein communities of people who are merely using the internet to communicate thoughts may find their computer systems confiscated and the government may be able to go through the membership lists and inprison the owners. Because of what they think. That framework is a problem, and if it is allowed to take hold and blossom it threatens all kinds of things that you DO like, including sites like this one.

The next time Vile shows up and spews a bunch of intentionally offensive crap at someone he doesn't like do I need to be worried that the FBI will shut the site down? No, but that day may be coming, and it makes sense to be aware that it is much closer now then it used to be.

First they came for the communists...

I agree with you that it is wrong that this site was shutdown. ... [ Read More (0.2k in body) ]

Jello wrote:
I think I'll have a hard time convincing many people that the site should still be around because of that. Even self-proclaimed champions of free speech.

Perhaps the reason that Obsenity is so vaugely defined in terms of "contemporary community standards" is that it is essentially a prohibition of speech which is too gross to garner widespread defense from the community. If the community will look the other way for fear of being associated with something they don't like it doesn't matter what the meaning of the Constitution is. And people certainly associate the ACLU with unpopular speech they defend as if they support it or condone it.

Decius wrote:

Civil liberties aren't about stuff that you like. Stuff that you like doesn't need to be protected. Freedom of speech is about speech you don't like.

Decius makes some good points, and I think this is pretty absurd all in all. I believe pretty strongly that thinking about committing a crime isn't a crime. This kind of case drags the arrest / legal action line further in that direction.

But I have another argument against it, which is that it's a waste of the FBI's time. It's possible I'm underestimating the severity of the child exploitation situation in this country, but I don't think I am. What I think is that the administration is throwing the religious right a bone via the FBI. They're pretty pissed at the moment, so they need a little bit of placating. Or am I just being a cynical partisan?

Regardless, I'm not so stupid as to believe we don't face actual threats from terrorism in this country (even if I do disagree with curtailing liberties to fight them). I'd rather have the FBI working to secure the nation from actual threats, because I really don't think pornography, even tasteless and offensive stories, is the most serious threat to our nation. -k]

What I think is that the administration is throwing the religious right a bone via the FBI. They're pretty pissed at the moment, so they need a little bit of placating. Or am I just being a cynical partisan?

I don't think so.

Decius wrote:

I am sorry to inform all interested parties that Red Rose Stories is a DEAD site.

The FBI has suceeded in closing me down.

I am being charged with 'OBSCENITIES' and face charges for having posted fantasy stories.

They are trying to say fantasy stories are illegal.

The men in black (FBI) took ALL of my computer equipment, and many of my diskettes,
and have access to ALL my files and site information. They came when I was NOT home and seized my belongings, I had no choice, and no recourse.

BoingBoing seems to be providing coverage of a number of cases. This one is key. My understanding is that the stories on this site were, ehm, perhaps a bit over the top. Certainly not the sort of writing one would recommend in polite company, or even, perhaps, in impolite company.

Nevertheless, they are just stories. They aren't pictures. They aren't movies. They are written stories. They are someone's thoughts. If it can be a crime to publish these stories then the only appropriate name for that sort of crime is thoughtcrime. This person's house has been raided for sharing inappropriate thoughts.

Ask your Republican friends who claim to advocate a strict constructionalist jurisprudence to explain how this is consistent with a literal reading of the first amendment.

Where are the facts here? All I've seen is the posting from the web site operating himself saying the feds shut him down..that's useless information.

Why did the feds shut him down? If that can be answered - I'd be willing to criticize them.

"charged with 'OBSCENITIES'" -- That's not a charge. I won't criticize the experts until more information is available but if they are charging this guy with something that's not illegal then the feds involved should be punished - However, I can only imagine there was a reason. Freedom of speech is only available if your speech isn't hurting someone else.

If your speech, stories, anything, can be proven to be harmful to others - your rights are revoked. You can't go into an airport and scream bomb - do you want to argue that arresting someone who does that is having their rights violated?

On the other hand, the government seems to be full of morons - so I can easily see how this is some right-wingers abusing power - but I'm going to have to give the feds the benefit of doubt until I see more info that would lead me to feel otherwise.

ibenez wrote:
Where are the facts here? All I've seen is the posting from the web site operating himself saying the feds shut him down..that's useless information.

I agree... There is coverage of this around on a number of different sites but none of it highly reliable. I hope this isn't true, but I don't think it is. See below...

"charged with 'OBSCENITIES'" -- That's not a charge. I won't criticize the experts until more information is available but if they are charging this guy with something that's not illegal then the feds involved should be punished - However, I can only imagine there was a reason.

It is illegal. Its just that the law is not clearly defined and hasn't been enforced in years. Context is here.