ibenez wrote:

NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

If this is going to provoke terrorists, which anyone with a brain realizes it will since anything Abu Ghraib seems to do - then what the HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ACLU and this judge?

Why release these pictures now - can't it wait a few years till we're leaving Iraq? I don't understand where this anti-Americanism comes from - we are at war why doesn't this judge realize that? Doing this UNDERMINES the war - so if they do realize that we are at war - they are KNOWINGLY abiding the enemy.

Due process, privacy, and a transparent government all undermine our war effort. But each is neccessary to preserve liberty.

ibenez wrote:

NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

If this is going to provoke terrorists, which anyone with a brain realizes it will since anything Abu Ghraib seems to do - then what the HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ACLU and this judge?

Why release these pictures now - can't it wait a few years till we're leaving Iraq? I don't understand where this anti-Americanism comes from - we are at war why doesn't this judge realize that? Doing this UNDERMINES the war - so if they do realize that we are at war - they are KNOWINGLY abiding the enemy.

I agree that releasing these pictures will hurt the war effort. I don't think irreparibly so, but there are costs. I think I can explain "what the hell is wrong with the ACLU and this judge." I'm not sure they are right, but I think understand what they are thinking, for what thats worth.

We don't yet know exactly what these pictures document, but it is clear that they document a significant war crime. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham from South Carolina said "The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience."

The ACLU, and this judge, aren't thinking about this specific incident. They are thinking about the long term. They would likely offer that the people who hurt our war effort aren't the people trying to publicize these pictures but the people who were responsible for the abuses in the first place. These kinds of problems are certainly not unique to America. But they shouldn't happen and the question is how can we prevent them from happening in the future.

This matter was not receiving the high level (Congressional) attention it deserves until after the pictures were originally released. The proceedures needed to prevent this sort of problem were not in place (otherwise it wouldn't have occured). The Red Cross has argued that this sort of problem is systemic and this is not an isolated incident.

If we live in the sort of society which would cover things like this up (ie if the law allows the Pentagon to prevent the disclosure of the pictures), then there is no direct incentive for the Pentagon to establish the right processes to keep this from happening other then their general benevolence, and there will be limited means for third party organizations to investigate this kind of problem when it occurs again. If this sort of thing can damage war efforts, then those tasked with making war will be careful to avoid it. That is the sort of incentive this judge and the ACLU seek to create, for the long term, and they are prepared to accept some cost in order to do that.

The question becomes, will the damage that the release of these pictures will do to our present effort be more significant long term then the benefit of ensuring that the military is strongly incented to prevent these things from going on in the future. That is a question that I feel completely unqualified to answer.

Decius wrote:

ibenez wrote:

NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

If this is going to provoke terrorists, which anyone with a brain realizes it will since anything Abu Ghraib seems to do - then what the HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ACLU and this judge?

Why release these pictures now - can't it wait a few years till we're leaving Iraq? I don't understand where this anti-Americanism comes from - we are at war why doesn't this judge realize that? Doing this UNDERMINES the war - so if they do realize that we are at war - they are KNOWINGLY abiding the enemy.

I agree that releasing these pictures will hurt the war effort. I don't think irreparibly so, but there are costs. I think I can explain "what the hell is wrong with the ACLU and this judge." I'm not sure they are right, but I think understand what they are thinking, for what thats worth.

We don't yet know exactly what these pictures document, but it is clear that they document a significant war crime. Republican Senator Lindsey Graham from South Carolina said "The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience."

The ACLU, and this judge, aren't thinking about this specific incident. They are thinking about the long term. They would likely offer that the people who hurt our war effort aren't the people trying to publicize these pictures but the people who were responsible for the abuses in the first place. These kinds of problems are certainly not unique to America. But they shouldn't happen and the question is how can we prevent them from happening in the future.

This matter was not receiving the high level (Congressional) attention it deserves until after the pictures were originally released. The proceedures needed to prevent this sort of problem were not in place (otherwise it wouldn't have occured). The Red Cross has argued that this sort of problem is systemic and this is not an isolated incident.

If we live in the sort of society which would cover things like this up (ie if the law allows the Pentagon to prevent the disclosure of the pictures), then there is no direct incentive for the Pentagon to establish the right processes to keep this from happening other then their general benevolence, and there will be limited means for third party organizations to investigate this kind of problem when it occurs again. If this sort of thing can damage war efforts, then those tasked with making war will be careful to avoid it. That is the sort of incentive this judge and the ACLU seek to create, for the long term, and they are prepared to accept some cost in order to do that.

The question becomes, will the damage that the release of these pictures will do to our present effort be more significant long term then the benefit of ensuring that the military is strongly incented to prevent these things from going on in the future. That is a question that I feel completely unqualified to answer.

Release the pictures, just wait until the timing is right. I'm all for civil liberties - but timing is important as it impacts American lives.

Release the pictures, just wait until the timing is right. I'm all for civil liberties - but timing is important as it impacts American lives.

I guess we don't know how bad the pictures are going to be, but worst case scenario:

If we've been pulling stuff like raping boys on video tape in our prisons in Iraq... then the information has already come out in Iraq, among the people of Iraq. They know what we really are through first-hand experience. We're just way behind on the truth until we see the pictures. If rape of children has been going on and the information informs us of this, then: THE INSURGENTS ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE US BEING AN EVIL INVADER. And we should pull out, because they are right, and we are wrong. The people of Iraq will already know this, because they live there and it will be their people getting raped in American operated prisons. We'll just be playing catch-up to what the Iraqi people know, and we'll be able to act accordingly. Because if the pics are that bad, then we've already lost. We'll never be trusted, and neither will any faction that requires our support to survive. Game over.

I hope its not that bad. I can't imagine that it would be. But if it is, we should face the consequences of the monstrous actions that we are collectively responsible for, realize that our armed forces are incapable of doing good in Iraq, and get them the fuck out of there. Let the UN take care of it. Abandon the oil. We should retreat in shame.

Thats just worst case, and just my opinion. Again, I... really, really hope that its not that bad. Hopefully its just more naked pyramids and other horrors we've already seen.

ibenez wrote:

NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

If this is going to provoke terrorists, which anyone with a brain realizes it will since anything Abu Ghraib seems to do - then what the HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ACLU and this judge?

Why release these pictures now - can't it wait a few years till we're leaving Iraq? I don't understand where this anti-Americanism comes from - we are at war why doesn't this judge realize that? Doing this UNDERMINES the war - so if they do realize that we are at war - they are KNOWINGLY abiding the enemy.

I linked this same story from another source. The judge doing this was 100% right. Some of the things going on at Abu Gharib and Gitmo and Bagram are bluntly, un-American.

Does it hurt the war effort? Sort of. If by hurting the war effort you mean it pisses off a bunch of people, then yes. If this comes out and it gets swept under the rug like the last round did, then absolutely it hurts the war effort and in that case the war effort SHOULD BE HURT. This is AMERICA. We are supposed to be in the right, not just when it's convenient, but when it is not. If we're over there raping and killing and torturing and pillaging, then we deserve to get our asses handed to us because we're in the wrong.

No, it can't wait a few years, and if we're doing things like what Graham has said, then the people involved should be taken out and hanged. What is alleged there is against everything that this country stands for. This is a great country because we don't let that kind of shit happen. Period.

I think they should have been released long ago. Watching the congressional hearings, there was mention of much more serious offenses. I don't think justice has been served in the case - why is it that only low level enlisted men and women have been charged? No, I heard at the initial release of the first pictures that there were movies of young boys - not men - being raped, a man being murdered, and much, much more perverse things than the first batch.

Terrorists are going to kill us anyway. I think that is what we are calling Iraqi citizens now that don't agree with the US 'action.'

This will inflame them, rightfull, but hopefully it will also inflame the American public so that this sort of thing NEVER happens again.

I heard a general say that the judge that did this should be drawn and quartered. OK. A General wants to kill a judge in a violent, torturous way. OK. I got it. I might be the only one that has it, but I heard that message loud and clear and I didn't like it one damn bit. RELEASE THE DAMN PHOTOS and come clean on this one.

skullaria wrote:

ibenez wrote:

NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

If this is going to provoke terrorists, which anyone with a brain realizes it will since anything Abu Ghraib seems to do - then what the HELL IS WRONG WITH THE ACLU and this judge?

Why release these pictures now - can't it wait a few years till we're leaving Iraq? I don't understand where this anti-Americanism comes from - we are at war why doesn't this judge realize that? Doing this UNDERMINES the war - so if they do realize that we are at war - they are KNOWINGLY abiding the enemy.

I linked this same story from another source. The judge doing this was 100% right. Some of the things going on at Abu Gharib and Gitmo and Bagram are bluntly, un-American.

Does it hurt the war effort? Sort of. If by hurting the war effort you mean it pisses off a bunch of people, then yes. If this comes out and it gets swept under the rug like the last round did, then absolutely it hurts the war effort and in that case the war effort SHOULD BE HURT. This is AMERICA. We are supposed to be in the right, not just when it's convenient, but when it is not. If we're over there raping and killing and torturing and pillaging, then we deserve to get our asses handed to us because we're in the wrong.

No, it can't wait a few years, and if we're doing things like what Graham has said, then the people involved should be taken out and hanged. What is alleged there is against everything that this country stands for. This is a great country because we don't let that kind of shit happen. Period.

I think they should have been released long ago. Watching the congressional hearings, there was mention of much more serious offenses. I don't think justice has been served in the case - why is it that only low level enlisted men and women have been charged? No, I heard at the initial release of the first pictures that there were movies of young boys - not men - being raped, a man being murdered, and much, much more perverse things than the first batch.

Terrorists are going to kill us anyway. This will inflame them, but hopefully it will also inflame the American public so that this sort of thing NEVER happens again.

I heard a general say that the judge that did this should be drawn and quartered. OK. A General wants to kill a judge in a violent, torturous way. OK. I got it. I might be the only one that has it, but I heard that message loud and clear and I didn't like it one damn bit. RELEASE THE DAMN PHOTOS and come clean on this on.

I 110% agree with the general. I also agree the photo's should be released, but timing is critical. This will impact military operations indirectly, and that is widely agreed upon by the military. The pictures should come out, when the war is over. Our military is far more important than you.