ibenez wrote:
I for one think this is great that the Iraqi's themselves are saying this - while our Democrats at home are still just whining.

Well, I'd be quite suprised to see the government that got instated as the result of the US invasion of Iraq take a political position in opposition to the US invasion of Iraq. Its clear that the US will play a significant roll in the cultural history of the resulting state for its future. France plays a significant roll in our cultural history because of their military assistance during the revolution. The US roll in Iraq's history will be far more significant then that.

None of these observations resolve substantive questions about the number of lives lost, the long term picture for the country, and the impact of the war on recruiting efforts by islamic terrorist groups worldwide. Its far from clear to me that everything in Iraq has worked out just fine and opposition groups are "just whining."

With regard to the war in Afghanistan liberal groups claimed at the time that widespread international support occured simply because other countries had no choice but to bow to US pressure. I take the difference in the amount of international support for the Iraq war as irrefutable evidence that this was not the case. Some conservatives have argued that opposition to the Iraq war is totally motivated by politics. I take the widespread bipartisan support for the war in Afghanistan as irrefutable evidence that this is also not the case.

Decius wrote:

With regard to the war in Afghanistan liberal groups claimed at the time that widespread international support occured simply because other countries had no choice but to bow to US pressure. I take the difference in the amount of international support for the Iraq war as irrefutable evidence that this was not the case. Some conservatives have argued that opposition to the Iraq war is totally motivated by politics. I take the widespread bipartisan support for the war in Afghanistan as irrefutable evidence that this is also not the case.

I would argue that the invasion of Afganistan was justified under the UN Charter because it was an act of self-defence. There was and in many ways remains a huge global pool of sympathy for the United States after the events of 9/11. It was a completely unprovoced attack, unjustified and "evil". I use such emotive language even though I believe to a certain extent the impulses behind the attack are driven by more than Isamic fundamentalism but also by a rejection of western values. These values are of freedom, democracy and capitalism. People see poverty, war and disease in the developing world and seek simplistic solutions. They perceive America and the west as making war on them which in turn justifies their acts. Is capitalism the global way forward out of poverty for hundreds of millions? Perhaps or perhaps not.
The "decadent western powers" will not collapse and I beleive the real strength of our values which fundamentally are about individual liberty, even capitalism about which I have reservations, is about the small growing and being empowered.
Liberalism is my battle cry. Democracy, human rights, the rule of law, freedom of expression and freedom of religion and capitalism( the freedom of people to take small ideas [memes] and build enterprises. My Muslim friend at work JC who wants to start a driving school, Henry Ford, Bill Gates, the small business people who come to my country UK or USA and build lives, corner shops, supermarkets, restaurants. Liberalism has given them freedom; economic and political, the two went hand in hand in my country historically {the same is necessary in China}).
Memes grow, propergate and mutate. The meme of liberalism is conquering the planet and can I believe do so by what Ghandi called Satyagraha or "truth force". Imperialism is a failed idealogy, illegal under International Law and against the liberal principles which underpin International Law. I believe in the United States and I believe in the principles which underpin the Constitution. Freedom and law. I am not saying that we do not need to be robust hence my belief that the invasion of Afganistan was justified however we are all bound of the law, even America.
The cry goes forward that the invasion of Iraq was an act of liberation. I agree. But the Soviets claimed to stay as liberators. Saadam claimed he liberated the Kuwaitis from their dictators. The fact that I agree with the liberating ideology does not justify the act of imposing it on others. If I am a Nazi and invade Poland and thereby start a war of aggression then I am a war criminal but Iraq, Iran, China. If imposing an ideology on a country by force of arms was wrong for the Nazis then it is wrong for the USA.
Liberalism is the stronger meme I believe.
Satyagraha

ibenez wrote:

WASHINGTON — Iraqi President Jalal Talabani (search), in his first visit to the White House, thanked President Bush for U.S. support and said "we will never forget what you have done for our people."

I'd like to hear some of your liberal comments about this.

I for one think this is great that the Iraqi's themselves are saying this - while our Democrats at home are still just whining.

Oh wait nevermind - I'm sure this guy was pressured to say this by the evil Republican Administration.

we'll see if the Iraqis are still thanking the US in 10 years
Is Talabani a puppet or someone who can genuinely unite and lead his country?
Do you expect him to critisize Bush? He is in only in power as a result of US military force and he needs your money to rebuild his country after years of war and sanctions.
This is a new beginning lets see what happens. However does this result, positive as it looks at the moment, justify American imperialism?

ibenez wrote:

WASHINGTON — Iraqi President Jalal Talabani (search), in his first visit to the White House, thanked President Bush for U.S. support and said "we will never forget what you have done for our people."

I'd like to hear some of your liberal comments about this.

I for one think this is great that the Iraqi's themselves are saying this - while our Democrats at home are still just whining.

Oh wait nevermind - I'm sure this guy was pressured to say this by the evil Republican Administration.

No, you're right. I'm sure that 50 years from now, the nation of Iraq will be a prosperous and stable community. They will have forgotten all about the pipe bombs that riddled their lines for food. They will have forgotten about suicide bombers driving into schools. They will have forgotten about jumping off a bridge because dieing in the water is better than being shredded by shrapnel. Those that have been displaced, had their businesses or lives destroyed, watched as loved ones and friends were taken as casualties of their liberation will rejoice and tell tales of honor, bravery, and justice to their children and their children's children. They will celebrate a national holiday that commerates their liberation from tyranny and how they stood up and rose for themselves to defeat their oppressive regime. Their currency will have a glorious picture of the gift that we gave to them to encourage their willingness to throw off their bondage and emerge as the democratic society they've so longed to be. Other nations will envy their status and marvel at their resilience to perservere through it all. Most importantly, the world will be a safer place and the idea of hate or jealousy or insecurity will be a thing of the past. And they will owe it all to George W. Bush.

ibenez wrote:

WASHINGTON — Iraqi President Jalal Talabani (search), in his first visit to the White House, thanked President Bush for U.S. support and said "we will never forget what you have done for our people."

I'd like to hear some of your liberal comments about this.

I for one think this is great that the Iraqi's themselves are saying this - while our Democrats at home are still just whining.

Oh wait nevermind - I'm sure this guy was pressured to say this by the evil Republican Administration.

Nope, they never will. Give them a decade or two and they'll be cursing our names, except when they're laughing at us. Bush Sr encouraged the Shi'a to rise up against Hussain in the early 90's then hung them out to dry. Bush Jr invaded, getting Hussain out of power, but didn't do it with enough force or foresight to make it work.

Had we sent in 3-400,000 guys in the first place, we might, maybe, have had enough force to create a functioning government over there by fiat, with enough guys and guns to maintain security while that government was set up. Had we planned ahead for the post invasion, we might have been able to get something operating and had a working Iraqi government and police in place in the fall of 2003.

That's all hypothetical. This whole operation has been screwed up on every single front but one. The PR fight drumming up support for this turd. FOX bought it, most of the rest of the media bought it, about 51% of the country bought it, and now they're finding out they've been lied to.

Oh wait nevermind - I'm sure this guy was pressured to say this by the evil Republican Administration.

I just came up with a joke.. Let me know if its any good:

What's worse than a bleeding heart liberal?

[ drum roll ]

A conservative with a persecution complex.

Rattle wrote:

Oh wait nevermind - I'm sure this guy was pressured to say this by the evil Republican Administration.

I just came up with a joke.. Let me know if its any good:

What's worse than a bleeding heart liberal?

[ drum roll ]

A conservative with a persecution complex.

Yes, it's good.