k wrote:
] flynn23 wrote:
] ] As an individual in this society, I do try my best to
] ] understand my common man. I may not agree with someone who
] ] feels abortion is evil, or that homosexuality is evil, or
] that
] ] prayer in schools should be required. But I'll die
] supporting
] ] their ability to speak about it, propose it, and even lobby
] ] for it. I'm willing to spend the time, energy, and attention
]
] ] to at least hear their perspective and contemplate it.
] ]
] ] What I'm offended by is that this is not reciprocated. I
] don't
] ] hear about groups aligned with these agendas willing to
] listen
] ] to alternatives, or even acknowledge their existance in most
]
] ] cases. I rarely engage with an individual who overtly sides
] ] with these issues and related issues who's willing to even
] ] listen to a rational alternative, much less engage in
] ] discussion. Hence, I don't ever get the feeling that there's
]
] ] mutual respect on the other side. I don't get the feeling
] that
] ] anything less than total conversion is acceptable. And that
] is
] ] extraordinarily upsetting.
]
] [ That's because discussion and rational argument is a virtue
] for you, whereas moral certitude and faith are virtues for
] them. It is our very open-mindedness that makes us weak, at
] least in the framework that exists at present. We're easily
] painted as wishy-washy, unsure of ourselves, directionless and
] so on. It's because grey areas, and the very concept of being
] convinced by logical argument are completely foreign to the
] mindset of a fundamentalist.
]
] In fact, once you start painting issues in the colors of
] religious doctrine, not only is dissent impossible, it's evil,
] by definition.
]
] And I'm generalizing, of course... there are levels to which
] this mindset has been adopted, but at the core, openmindedness
] and fundamentalism are completely irreconcilable. They
] *can't* listen to your point of view, because doing so would
] undermine the rock of faith, on which they've based their
] entire lives.
]
] ] Why is it that by doing the right thing (being tolerant,
] even
] ] supportive) puts you in a position of being abused and
] ] vulnerable? Why can't we agree to disagree and leave it at
] ] that?
]
] [ The "right thing" is a construction of your value system.
] Tolerance, much less support, of viewpoints which counter what
] they think of as the "right thing" are more than incorrect or
] fallacious... they're wrong... morally wrong. It's a
] framework we on the left have trouble with, not because we
] don't believe in morality or even religion, but because we
] don't discuss our ideological stands on the basis of morality.
] It's not impossible, though I don't argue that it's the best
] or only thing to do...
]
] ] I don't want to make the rest of the country in my own
] ] image. Why do they?
]
] [ Well, in the sense that you want them to address all
] situations with an appeal to logic, reason, discussion, and
] anlysis, you do, and with the belief that doing so will yeild
] results similar to those you came to. The distinction being
] that if, through their analysis, they come to a different
] conclusion, one that can be articulated without vague
] assertions of what Jesus would do, or stubborn adherence to
] dogma, you'd be happy to accept that situation. -k]

you make great points, but they are ones that I included in my thought process proceeding my post. After all, I can relate to being someone who's inline with this thinking. There's nothing wrong with faith. We all practice it in some way, shape, or form, every day. But my point is that it's not what Jesus' teaching imply, or even explicitly define, as appropriate behavior.

I mean, these are basic teachings. Do unto others as you'd have others do to you. Give unto Caeser his things, and unto God his things. Love thy neighbor. Blah blah blah. It goes on and on and on, and I could sit here and cite scripture after scripture to emunerate my point. But my real point was that I feel as though I practice these teachings better than the people who profess to practice them. This has absolutely nothing to do with what I value in terms of philosophy or values. It's just a fucking fact.

RE: Moral values... (from atrios)