k wrote:
] ] The shooting started when two hunters returning to their
] ] rural cabin saw the suspect in one of their hunting
] ] platforms in a tree, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim
] ] Zeigle said. The platforms or "tree stands" allow hunters
] ] to see deer without being easily seen themselves.
] ]
] ] Both of those hunters were wounded and one of them
] ] radioed friends at the cabin a quarter-mile away. Other
] ] members of their group responded and they also were shot,
] ] he said.
] ]
] ] "It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree
] ] stand?" asked Zeigle.
] ]
] ] Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and
] ] killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a
] ] common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun
] ] hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
]
] [ Wow. That's awesome.
]
] The article indicates that the SKS is a "common" gun for
] hunting, but perhaps someone who knows more about hunting can
] enlighten me... is it a rapid firing weapon? How much ammo?
] In other words, is it really ideal for deer, or is it better
] suited for what happened here?
]
] Sounds like someone never should have gotten a permit to me.
] -k]

Well as someone who knows their guns (for no real reason), the SKS is the chinese designation for the AK-47. It's cheap, it's reliable, and no hunter I've EVER heard of uses the damn thing. It's noisy (yep, that works great with deer who bolt at a the sound of a snail farting 400 yards away) not very accurate at range. What it is good as is throwing up a ton of lead. Traditionally, they have something like a 20-30 round banana clip, and can unload the whole thing in a few seconds, although it's semi-automatic, not full auto. It's designed to kill people, not deer.

Next question?

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] Well as someone who knows their guns (for no real reason), the
] SKS is the chinese designation for the AK-47. It's cheap,
] it's reliable, and no hunter I've EVER heard of uses the damn
] thing. It's noisy (yep, that works great with deer who bolt
] at a the sound of a snail farting 400 yards away) not very
] accurate at range. What it is good as is throwing up a ton of
] lead. Traditionally, they have something like a 20-30 round
] banana clip, and can unload the whole thing in a few seconds,
] although it's semi-automatic, not full auto. It's designed to
] kill people, not deer.

[ Thanks mike! That's kind of what i surmised from the accounts i read, but I do like to have facts before I spring to judgement. ...]

] Next question?

[ Well, I guess one question is, did the paper fuck up when they said it's a common hunting weapon, or do people in some places actually use it for that purpose. Or is it a common "hunting" weapon in the sense that people who want one say, "Yeah, i need it for hunting." despite it's being completely unsuited for that?

When I was a kid, our mailman, Pete, used to regale us with descriptions of his many guns, and his hatred of all anti-gun laws and (despite how closely this mirrors the stereotype, i swear it's true) paranoid ravings about how the post office had someone following him and that he wasn't going to take that kind of shit forever, wink-wink. I'm pretty sure, recalling some of the pictures he'd show, that he had a number of assault rifles and the like, for "hunting." He was nuts. Always had a milkbone for my dog, Kaiser Wilhelm, however, and I'm pretty sure he never *actually* stormed the post office with his arsenal or capped other hunters in a territoriality contest. -k]

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] Well as someone who knows their guns (for no real reason), the
] SKS is the chinese designation for the AK-47. It's cheap,
] it's reliable, and no hunter I've EVER heard of uses the damn
] thing. It's noisy (yep, that works great with deer who bolt
] at a the sound of a snail farting 400 yards away) not very
] accurate at range. What it is good as is throwing up a ton of
] lead. Traditionally, they have something like a 20-30 round
] banana clip, and can unload the whole thing in a few seconds,
] although it's semi-automatic, not full auto. It's designed to
] kill people, not deer.

The 30 round clip is illegal in the states. When people use a SKS for hunting they use the 10 round clip in the configuration where the weapon loads from the top.. At least they should.

You are accurate in your description of the firearm. It would not be my first pick for a hunting rifle. It is an offensive weapon. Almost all semi-autos leave a little to be desired in terms of accuracy at range, the exceptions being more modern assault rifles. A good example of that would be a Bushmaster like the DC snipers used in their killing spree. It would be a better hunting rifle then an SKS, but I'm sure that's not what anyone wants to hear. Bolt action rifles are usually the preferred hunting rifle since its the first shot that counts, and they are not as heavy. A bolt action rifle was used to kill JFK. Their rate of fire, while much slower then a semi-auto, is still up to the speed required by the DC snipers to carry out their attacks. I think a bolt action rifle was also used by Charles Whitman in the Texas clock-tower shootings.

Regardless of firearm design, it is only usage that matters. Irresponsible people like this cause rights to be taken away. This idiot clearly had no respect for human life. This lack of respect did not come from the gun. As a responsible firearm owner, I want to see this guy spend the rest of his life in jail. Every time something like this happens, it reflects badly on gun owners. It would be nice to see him made an example of, and not the firearm, but I know that is not going to happen that way.

This article isn't bad. The way these things are usually handled, I expect to be seeing a picture of the firearm, not the suspect.

Rattle wrote:
]
] The 30 round clip is illegal in the states. When people use a
] SKS for hunting they use the 10 round clip in the
] configuration where the weapon loads from the top.. At least
] they should.
]
] You are accurate in your description of the firearm. It would
] not be my first pick for a hunting rifle. It is an offensive
] weapon. Almost all semi-autos leave a little to be desired in
] terms of accuracy at range, the exceptions being more modern
] assault rifles. A good example of that would be a Bushmaster
] like the DC snipers used in their killing spree. It would be
] a better hunting rifle then an SKS, but I'm sure that's not
] what anyone wants to hear. Bolt action rifles are usually the
] preferred hunting rifle since its the first shot that counts,
] and they are not as heavy. A bolt action rifle was used to
] kill JFK. Their rate of fire, while much slower then a
] semi-auto, is still up to the speed used by the DC snipers in
] their attacks. I think a bolt action rifle was also used by
] Charles Whitman in the Texas clock-tower shootings.
]
] Regardless of firearm design, it is only usage that matters.
] Irresponsible people like this cause rights to be taken away.
] This idiot clearly had no respect for human life. This lack
] of respect did not come from the gun. As a responsible
] firearm owner, I want to see this guy spend the rest of his
] life in jail. Every time something like this happens, it
] reflects badly on gun owners. It would be nice to see him
] made an example of, and not the firearm, but I know that is
] not going to happen that way.
]
] This article isn't bad. The way these things are usually
] handled, I expect to be seeing a picture of the firearm, not
] the suspect.

I'm not sure the banana clip is illegal. I know it isn't legal to sell (or at least it wasn't prior to the expiration of the assualt weapons ban about a month ago, it may actually be legal again in some areas) but they may be legal to own. This falls into the same category as the extended clips for automatic pistols which have been a thriving "used" market for the past few years. It isn't legal to sell a new handgun with a clip capacity of more than I think 9 or 10 rounds. But, a number of them originally came with much larger clip capacities. The Glocks and Brownings from 5-10 years ago came with clips that held anywhere from 13-17 rounds. Under the Brady bill, those were illegal, but they were just dandy beforehand.

There are a number or reasons that the SKS is not a good hunting rifle, in any of it's configurations. The version you refer to with the 10 round top box is poor because the ammo box blocks the sights, and frankly, it's a short barrel rifle/carbine, which means over the bullet flight, it won't be very accurate.

Now, I am not opposed to the right to bear arms in principle, but I think that the practice is an entirely different matter. If I were drawing up rules for what is and isn't a legitimate firearm, my very first restriction would be, no automatic or semi-automatic weapons. Period. That single stroke would make the new rules be, handguns would be limited to revolvers or things ike derrigers (which are more than dangerous enough already, and bolt action or pump/lever action rifles and shotguns. You want to be a hunter? As noted, it's the first shot that counts. Home protection? Same issue.

If nothing else, it would mean the end of "drive-bys."

] I'm not sure the banana clip is illegal. I know it isn't
] legal to sell (or at least it wasn't prior to the expiration
] of the assualt weapons ban about a month ago, it may actually
] be legal again in some areas) but they may be legal to own.
] This falls into the same category as the extended clips for
] automatic pistols which have been a thriving "used" market for
] the past few years. It isn't legal to sell a new handgun with
] a clip capacity of more than I think 9 or 10 rounds. But, a
] number of them originally came with much larger clip
] capacities. The Glocks and Brownings from 5-10 years ago came
] with clips that held anywhere from 13-17 rounds. Under the
] Brady bill, those were illegal, but they were just dandy
] beforehand.

I concur. 30 round clips are not illegal in Georgia. They are sold all day long at gun shows. An SKS or an AK-47/M/74 almost always comes with a 30 round clip.

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] I'm not sure the banana clip is illegal. I know it isn't
] legal to sell (or at least it wasn't prior to the expiration
] of the assualt weapons ban about a month ago, it may actually
] be legal again in some areas) but they may be legal to own.
] This falls into the same category as the extended clips for
] automatic pistols which have been a thriving "used" market for
] the past few years. It isn't legal to sell a new handgun with
] a clip capacity of more than I think 9 or 10 rounds. But, a
] number of them originally came with much larger clip
] capacities. The Glocks and Brownings from 5-10 years ago came
] with clips that held anywhere from 13-17 rounds. Under the
] Brady bill, those were illegal, but they were just dandy
] beforehand.

Yes, the same rules for 14 round handgun clips apply. I am pretty sure you are not allowed to hunt with the larger clips. I'm pretty sure that is the case in many states. I could be wrong. I do know you are even required to plug semi-auto and pump-action shotguns to hold only three rounds when hunting in some places. Most semi-auto and pump-action shotguns have a 5-7 round capacity.

] There are a number or reasons that the SKS is not a good
] hunting rifle, in any of it's configurations. The version you
] refer to with the 10 round top box is poor because the ammo
] box blocks the sights, and frankly, it's a short barrel
] rifle/carbine, which means over the bullet flight, it won't be
] very accurate.

You are wrong about the clip. It does not obstruct the sites. The clip goes in the same place as the 30 round clip, only it is not removable. You _load_ the rifle from the top, similar to many bolt action rifles. When the action is pulled back, you take the rounds and press them down into the magazine. You can't remove the magazine without all the rounds falling out.

] Now, I am not opposed to the right to bear arms in principle,
] but I think that the practice is an entirely different matter.
] If I were drawing up rules for what is and isn't a legitimate
] firearm, my very first restriction would be, no automatic or
] semi-automatic weapons. Period. That single stroke would
] make the new rules be, handguns would be limited to revolvers
] or things ike derrigers (which are more than dangerous enough
] already, and bolt action or pump/lever action rifles and
] shotguns. You want to be a hunter? As noted, it's the first
] shot that counts. Home protection? Same issue.
]
] If nothing else, it would mean the end of "drive-bys."

No it wouldn't. Violent criminals who acquire firearms illegally would still have them, still be able to get them, and still use them. People like myself who would refuse to surrender their arms would only be made into criminals for no valid reason. Nothing would... [ Read More (0.1k in body) ]

Rattle wrote:
] The 30 round clip is illegal in the states. When people use a
] SKS for hunting they use the 10 round clip in the
] configuration where the weapon loads from the top.. At least
] they should.

[ Good to know... ...]

] Regardless of firearm design, it is only usage that matters.
] Irresponsible people like this cause rights to be taken away.
] This idiot clearly had no respect for human life. This lack
] of respect did not come from the gun. As a responsible
] firearm owner, I want to see this guy spend the rest of his
] life in jail. Every time something like this happens, it
] reflects badly on gun owners. It would be nice to see him
] made an example of, and not the firearm, but I know that is
] not going to happen that way.

[ True, to a point. There *are* people who think it oughta be perfectly ok for them to own surface to air missiles and land mines and so on. I'm not really into that. Fundamentally though, you're right, ultimately it's everyone's responsibility to treat guns, and more importantly, other people, respectfully. The firearm itself can only influence how much damange someone can do when they decide to do so, but the victims are just as dead. ...]

] This article isn't bad. The way these things are usually
] handled, I expect to be seeing a picture of the firearm, not
] the suspect.

[ Actually, i've checked out 4 or 5 stories so far, hoping they'd have more information, and they all showed the guy, so far. Those were mostly local news type sites though, so the narrative may change when it gets picked up by the national media. -k]

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] k wrote:
] ] ] The shooting started when two hunters returning to their
] ] ] rural cabin saw the suspect in one of their hunting
] ] ] platforms in a tree, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim
] ] ] Zeigle said. The platforms or "tree stands" allow hunters
] ] ] to see deer without being easily seen themselves.
] ] ]
] ] ] Both of those hunters were wounded and one of them
] ] ] radioed friends at the cabin a quarter-mile away. Other
] ] ] members of their group responded and they also were shot,
] ] ] he said.
] ] ]
] ] ] "It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree
] ] ] stand?" asked Zeigle.
] ] ]
] ] ] Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and
] ] ] killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a
] ] ] common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun
] ] ] hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
] ]
] ] [ Wow. That's awesome.
] ]
] ] The article indicates that the SKS is a "common" gun for
] ] hunting, but perhaps someone who knows more about hunting
] can
] ] enlighten me... is it a rapid firing weapon? How much
] ammo?
] ] In other words, is it really ideal for deer, or is it better
]
] ] suited for what happened here?
] ]
] ] Sounds like someone never should have gotten a permit to me.
]
] ] -k]
]
] Well as someone who knows their guns (for no real reason), the
] SKS is the chinese designation for the AK-47. It's cheap,
] it's reliable, and no hunter I've EVER heard of uses the damn
] thing. It's noisy (yep, that works great with deer who bolt
] at a the sound of a snail farting 400 yards away) not very
] accurate at range. What it is good as is throwing up a ton of
] lead. Traditionally, they have something like a 20-30 round
] banana clip, and can unload the whole thing in a few seconds,
] although it's semi-automatic, not full auto. It's designed to
] kill people, not deer.
]
] Next question?

The SKS is not the same gun as the AK-47. The SKS was the predeccesor to the AK-47. It actually saw duty in WW2 against the Germans, in 1944. It has a rifle grip, instead of a pistol grip.

The one I played with was full auto, but that may have been a redneck modification. Both the AK and the SKS use 7.62 x 39 ammo.

The thing about the SKS and the AK-47, is that if you want a single weapon for about $100... that can hunt deer out to 200 yards, "defend" your home, and make your penis feel bigger, then these are it. Thats probably why the guy had it. They're cheap. They never ever ever jam, even if you fill them with sand and mud. They're reasonable accurate and powerful.

Jello wrote:
]
] The SKS is not the same gun as the AK-47. It has a rifle
] grip, instead of a pistol grip. The one I played with was
] full auto, but that may have been a redneck modification.
] Both use 7.62 x 39 ammo.

Good point. Here's an SKS photo http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976528453.htm (only $150! a steal!)
and here's the AK-47
http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47.html

There are significant differences, I was incorrect. My bad. I still stick with the "not a hunting rifle notes for the reasons listed, the damn things rattle.

You are correct that they both use the same ammo, and I guarantee the full auto version you saw was a redneck mod. Full auto weapons are flat out illegal in the US without special permit under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The large clips were banned under the 1994 crime bill which recently expired, although I am not sure if the clip size part was a section which expired. I know the "assault weapons ban" part did, and it is once again legal to buy brand new Ak-47s, Uzis and AR-15s (M-16s).

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] Jello wrote:
] ]
] ] The SKS is not the same gun as the AK-47. It has a rifle
] ] grip, instead of a pistol grip. The one I played with was
] ] full auto, but that may have been a redneck modification.
] ] Both use 7.62 x 39 ammo.
]
] Good point. Here's an SKS photo
] http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976528453.htm (only $150! a
] steal!)
] and here's the AK-47
] http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47.html
]
] There are significant differences, I was incorrect. My bad.
] I still stick with the "not a hunting rifle notes for the
] reasons listed, the damn things rattle.
]
] You are correct that they both use the same ammo, and I
] guarantee the full auto version you saw was a redneck mod.
] Full auto weapons are flat out illegal in the US without
] special permit under the National Firearms Act of 1934.
]
] The large clips were banned under the 1994 crime bill which
] recently expired, although I am not sure if the clip size part
] was a section which expired. I know the "assault weapons ban"
] part did, and it is once again legal to buy brand new Ak-47s,
] Uzis and AR-15s (M-16s).

There were loopholes in the ban. I own a semi-automatic Romanian AK-47. It is a post-ban gun. Which means that in order to have a pistol grip, they have to pull some shenanigans with the stock. It is cut to be one piece with the pistol grip, with a hole through it. It came with a 30 round clip three years ago, at a gunshow.

I don't think he had a permit for an automatic weapon (not hard to get, but a bit pricey), so yeah it must have been redneck.