Decius wrote:
] Inspired by Elonka and Rattle, I'll offer my feelings on this
] evening.

] We are a deeply divided
] nation. Whatever the results of this election, they will be
] terribly bad for a large number of people who live here. Zogby
] says that most people won't accept the legitimacy of their
] opponent's government if their side looses. That worry isn't
] just about the outcome. Its about what happens afterward.

Decius, thanks for your thoughts. I found this interesting, and also found Rattle's essay interesting, and I'm glad you both wrote.

Speaking as someone who voted for Bush, I have to say this though: I don't hate Kerry. If he's elected, I will support him as President. I can't speak for everyone who's voted for Bush, but I know some who have, and I think they feel the same. We vote our conscience, but if the candidate that we choose isn't elected, that doesn't mean that we hate them or despise their decisions. I would hope that those who voted for Kerry can feel the same way about Bush, if he wins.

When Bush was elected in 2000, I was disappointed. I'd voted for Gore. I hoped that Gore would win the legal battles, and I was disappointed when he gave up. But I was encouraged when Bush appointed Colin Powell, and I've grown to respect many of the decisions that Bush made, especially after September 11th.

Ultimately, that's what I expect from *either* candidate that wins. Sure, there's a lot of crap that goes on during the election season, and a lot of lies flow from candidates' mouths. This is nothing new. But I firmly believe that both Kerry and Bush are patriots, who genuinely want what's best for America. If they make decisions differently than I would, well, so be it, but I don't think either one of them is a bad person. Bits of this could be seen from the candidates themselves during the debates. They'd rail and whine about each other's positions and decisions and votes, but when asked about the *character* of each other, they'd usually speak well of the opponent, and of the opponent's family. Neither one of them is a demon.

I can identify with some of your feelings though. As I've watched the election returns come in this afternoon and evening, I've felt worried too. I want to see the candidate that I voted for, win. There's a sense that I'll have lost face if I voted for someone that doesn't win. That I supported a "losing side". But I truly put this down to the passion of the moment, because when I reach deep inside myself and ask how I'd feel if the other side won, I know it'd be okay. Life would go on, the world isn't going to end. Democrats will fight against Republicans, Republicans will fight against Democrats, sure, but this is nothing new. Some countries won't approve of our choice? Well that's not new either. Countries are going to disagree with each other, but I don't see the outcome of this election leading to something like World War III.

Like Obama said, there are patriots who disagreed with the War in Iraq, and there are patriots who agreed with it. It doesn't mean one side is right and the other side is wrong. It means that we're human, and we think differently, and we debate things and try to make the best decisions we can in our muddled and imperfect human condition.

As I write this, I honestly don't know who's going to win the Presidency this year. But whoever does, I'll still be an American citizen, and I'll support our country, and I'll criticize our country, and I'll still believe in our system of government because even when it sucks, it's still a hell of a lot better than pretty much anything else out there.

And a couple years from now, there'll be another election, and again, I'll go to the polls, along with millions of other Americans, and we'll make the best decisions we can.

Elonka

Elonka wrote:
] Speaking as someone who voted for Bush, I have to say this
] though: I don't hate Kerry. If he's elected, I will support
] him as President. I can't speak for everyone who's voted for
] Bush, but I know some who have, and I think they feel the
] same.

Elonka,

I appreciate your optimism and your fairness. With respect to these comments of course I wasn't referring to you personally, but rather the sort of noise you'd expect out of Fox, Limbaugh, the DrudgeReport, LittleGreenFootballs... Essentially the right spin machine, and the people who follow it. Of course, writing this it appears that the Republicans have swept the election, and so the prediction is moot.

Elonka wrote:
] Decius wrote:
] ] Inspired by Elonka and Rattle, I'll offer my feelings on
] this
] ] evening.
]
] ] We are a deeply divided
] ] nation. Whatever the results of this election, they will be
] ] terribly bad for a large number of people who live here.
] Zogby
] ] says that most people won't accept the legitimacy of their
] ] opponent's government if their side looses. That worry isn't
]
] ] just about the outcome. Its about what happens afterward.
]

(chopped because it was long)

] As I write this, I honestly don't know who's going to win the
] Presidency this year. But whoever does, I'll still be an
] American citizen, and I'll support our country, and I'll
] criticize our country, and I'll still believe in our system of
] government because even when it sucks, it's still a hell of a
] lot better than pretty much anything else out there.
]
] And a couple years from now, there'll be another election, and
] again, I'll go to the polls, along with millions of other
] Americans, and we'll make the best decisions we can.
]
] Elonka

I'm sorry, but you won't go to another election in a few years. The only historical precedent I can think of for what happened this evening is Germany in 1933.

That may push a few buttons, and it should. If you aren't scared then you should be. Personally, I am far more afraid of what George W. Bush is going to do than anything Osama Bin Laden could ever do.

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] I'm sorry, but you won't go to another election in a few
] years. The only historical precedent I can think of for what
] happened this evening is Germany in 1933.
]
] That may push a few buttons, and it should. If you aren't
] scared then you should be. Personally, I am far more afraid
] of what George W. Bush is going to do than anything Osama Bin
] Laden could ever do.

(reaching into my pocket) Okay, we're going to have to bet money on this again, hmmm? How much, Mike?

Elonka wrote:
] Mike the Usurper wrote:
] ] I'm sorry, but you won't go to another election in a few
] ] years. The only historical precedent I can think of for
] what
] ] happened this evening is Germany in 1933.
] ]
] ] That may push a few buttons, and it should. If you aren't
] ] scared then you should be. Personally, I am far more afraid
]
] ] of what George W. Bush is going to do than anything Osama
] Bin
] ] Laden could ever do.
]
] (reaching into my pocket) Okay, we're going to have to bet
] money on this again, hmmm? How much, Mike?

I understand what Mike is saying...I don't think bush is evil though, just dumb and surrounded by evil men. I think he is just as aware as I am that the people LOVED Hitler too at the time he rose to power.

No wonder education sucks in this country. Stats are showing that educated people are more likely to be liberal voters.

skullaria wrote:

] No wonder education sucks in this country. Stats are showing
] that educated people are more likely to be liberal voters.

Whoa, it's getting hot in here. Flame on!

Decius wrote:
] You are about to be punched in the stomach. That sinking
] feeling is your heart wondering which direction the swing is
] going to come from.

I choose to paraphrase. "That sinking feeling in your stomach is your heart deciding which direction the swing is coming from."

I've been playing games of pool all night deciding which way the election will go. Stripes have been the Democrats, Solids have been the Republicans. You will hear the results tomorrow.

Speaking as someone who voted for Bush, I have to say this though: I don't hate Kerry. If he's elected, I will support him as President. I can't speak for everyone who's voted for Bush, but I know some who have, and I think they feel the same. We vote our conscience, but if the candidate that we choose isn't elected, that doesn't mean that we hate them or despise their decisions.

[ I wish i shared your optimism. And I hope the nation survives the next four years, regardless of who's leading it. There is some incredible shit facing this country, and no easy answers to cram into a soundbite. Real decisions, many of them zero sum, and will have effects for decades.

And no, i'm not kidding, there is a financial crisis coming down the pipe, we're running out of easy access to non-opec oil, and we're still slogging in Iraq to an increasingly undefined goal.

Anyway, if nothing else, i can be glad that the past 4 years have vastly increased my political knowledge and involvement, and i don't see that changing... this has been a transformative period for me, and hopefully for many of my peers, and I think the next four will be even more active. -k]

k wrote:
] Anyway, if nothing else, i can be glad that the past 4 years
] have vastly increased my political knowledge and involvement,
] and i don't see that changing... this has been a
] transformative period for me, and hopefully for many of my
] peers, and I think the next four will be even more active.
] -k]

Then that's a great thing. :)

One of the ironies that's struck me about this election, is that in previous years, I often heard people complaining that "their vote didn't matter". Presidential elections were usually won with such a clear majority, that voting could feel futile for some. But this election (and the one in 2000), it's clear that individual votes *do* matter, and I think that along with that knowledge for many people is also the increased sense of responsibility. When people feel their votes matter, they become more emotionally invested in the process.

So yes, passions are running hotter, people care more, things are debated with more emotion and volume. I see all of these as *good* things. It's when people stop caring that I worry.

k wrote:
] Speaking as someone who voted for Bush, I have to say this
] though: I don't hate Kerry. If he's elected, I will support
] him as President. I can't speak for everyone who's voted for
] Bush, but I know some who have, and I think they feel the
] same. We vote our conscience, but if the candidate that we
] choose isn't elected, that doesn't mean that we hate them or
] despise their decisions.

I agree with the above statement. Please don't clump all republicans in with the extremist jerks that the media puts on TV. Just like I don't believe that all democrats are "bleeding heart" liberals or that all hackers are evil people trying to rob the planet. Most of us are moderate and simply vote our opinion as to what we think is best for the country.

My opinion may differ froms yours, but I can respect yours if you respect mine.

StankDawg wrote:
] I agree with the above statement. Please don't clump all
] republicans in with the extremist jerks that the media puts on
] TV.

I responded to Elonka's post on this and I'll respond to yours to.

I did not mean to offend. I didn't clump all republicans in with the extremist jerks, and I didn't intend to. I said about third of the country would be seething at Kerry in he won. The republicans are much larger then a third of the country. Turns out that number is just about exactly right:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3973197.stm

Recent polls suggest that supporters of the two rival candidates have little respect for their opponent.

An NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll asked people whether they agreed or disagreed with the statement: "No matter who wins the election, America will have a good president."

Just 30% said they agreed while two-thirds said they disagreed.

StankDawg wrote:
] My opinion may differ froms yours, but I can respect yours if
] you respect mine.

[ My concern is twofold... the first is that i honestly feel that the feeling you espouse here is one only truly held by a vanishingly small percentage of people. Most of the folks who post here are smart, engaged and well informed. They know the details and value the application of logic and reason to matters of governance. I have nothing but respect for this... in fact, i consider it to be the foundation of ethical behavior. I am, perhaps, overly cynical, but my experiences have not led me to be particularly optimistic that most people either value logic, or respect alternate viewpoints.

In fact, the right depends on this. The use of extremlely controversial wedge issues, ones which provoke a visceral response rather than a logical and reasoned one, plays into the response of what I think is the majority in this country these days... ideologues and pretenders to moral superiority. This is the crux of my second concern, which is that politics of this type leaves little room for debates. On matters of somewhat academic nature, such as economics for example, the respose can be more objective, less inflamed. But moral issues evoke a more categorical response. Issues are viewed as matters of absolute right and wrong. The truth is that most issues now end up couched in this rhetoric, and the result is precicely the lack of repect you correctly wish for. If someone who doesn't share my belief is my enemy, then reasoned, logical discourse is not possible. The framing of issues is a major factor in the way those issues are debated, and when framed as a moral choice, the room for dialogue shrinks, or vanishes.

A large percentage of people look for their leaders to have ideological certitude about their positions. The traction that attacks on changes of mind or the appearance of hypocracy have is evidence of this fact. But the embrace of certainty is itself a rejection of discourse. People who are certain of their correctness are neither compelled nor willing to engage in a debate, besides the fabricated theatre envisioned by Crossfire and so on. Of course, there are themes that I want to be categorical in a leader, basic tenets of behavior which are solid, but the expansion of that requirement to all statements and all behavior just demolishes the likelihood that productive debates will happen.

It's a problem I think will occupy us for a long time to come. I am glad to know a number of people who hold reason and logic above ideology and faith, who realize that being smart and educated is a benefit, not a fault, and who are willing to live and act accordingly. I'm disheartened that they are not, apparently, the majority. -k]