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Quick exit from Iraq is likely
by Decius at 10:09 am EDT, Sep 21, 2004

] Inside the Bush administration policymaking apparatus,
] there is strong feeling that U.S. troops must leave Iraq
] next year. This determination is not predicated on
] success in implanting Iraqi democracy and internal
] stability. Rather, the officials are saying: Ready or
] not, here we go.

If we walk out and leave the place for dead we'll produce another Iran.
Will the U.N. help us now that we've made this mess? Can they do so effectively? Would the people in Iraq view them more legitimately as a security force? Do they have the strength to take the insurgents on when we don't?

RE: Quick exit from Iraq is likely
by Vile at 4:44 pm EDT, Sep 21, 2004

Decius wrote:
] ] Inside the Bush administration policymaking apparatus,
] ] there is strong feeling that U.S. troops must leave Iraq
] ] next year. This determination is not predicated on
] ] success in implanting Iraqi democracy and internal
] ] stability. Rather, the officials are saying: Ready or
] ] not, here we go.

Very good. I would prefer us to admit when we have made a mistake and get the hell out before more of our troops die. Kerry had made it clear that he would keep us in Iraq for four years. If Bush is willing to take us out of there then more power to him. We don't want another Lyndon Johnson situation. Unless if maybe the liberals are so starved for something to bitch about and bring them together that they don't mind sacrificing about ten thousand or so of their fellow countrymen.
]
] If we walk out and leave the place for dead we'll produce
] another Iran.
] Will the U.N. help us now that we've made this mess? Can they
] do so effectively?
It would be nice of them. I think they have the time.

Would the people in Iraq view them more
] legitimately as a security force?

Definitely, some would. However, Saddam was necessary to keep control over an area that is nothing like the US. His "despotic, vicious, brutal, iron-fisted control" over the nation kept it from becoming what it is now. We simply didn't leave well enough alone. We've had problems with radical shiites for some time now, but the sunnis were not an enemy we counted on having. At least we brought them together!

Do they have the strength to
] take the insurgents on when we don't?

Probably not, but it's a lose/lose situation any way you look at it.

Quick exit from Iraq is likely
by k at 11:16 am EDT, Sep 21, 2004

[ Keep in mind, this is Robert Novak talking. Not someone I have a lot of faith in. That being said, I think this article cuts to the heart of what a lot of people are starting to realize, which is that the place is quite simply fucked. That the situation may be so far out of hand that anything resembling victory is not merely difficult, but completely impossible. That the scope of the mismanagement is so great that no UN support or new tactic or amount of money is gonna fix it.

I don't claim to be expert enough to make this determination, but i read enough to catch the thread of this argument from people who are experts. The comparisons to Vietnam are no longer tossed around frivolously by extremists, but by highly respected ex-generals. More, or different colored, boots on the ground may not be enough. Bush broke Iraq, and we may have to admit that it's beyond putting back together. No one likes that answer, but it's not implausible.

And I think turning into Iran isn't the worst case scenario even. -k]