Decius wrote:
] ] Amendment supporters contend the flag deserves special
] ] protection as an important national symbol, while
] ] opponents, including Kerry, have argued that flag
] ] desecration can be punished under criminal statutes
] ] without tampering with the Constitution.
]
] In other words, no one is interested in the idea that flag
] desecration is protected speech.
]
] ] The flag proposal, which would empower Congress to
] ] ban desecration of the U.S. flag, would be the second
] ] GOP-sponsored constitutional amendment to come to a vote
] ] in the Senate this year.
]
] Except this one has passed the house, and has support from all
] 50 state legislatures. We are literally within a handful of
] Senate votes of flushing the first amendment down the toilet.
]
]
] Think about it this way. These same people who don't have the
] basic intellectual capacity to parse their way through the
] implications of a flag amendment are making all of the
] important decisions concerning our foreign policy in the
] middle east, decisions which if made incorrectly will easily
] plunge the entire world into total war.
]
] To me this is amendment is a symbol. It symbolizes the fact
] that our society does not know right from wrong. It we can
] pass it, we can do anything.

This is an excellent point. Unfortunately we as a society are on a very slippery slope. By the time people sit up and take notice this will have snowballed into a huge problem.

Palindrome wrote:
]
] This is an excellent point. Unfortunately we as a society are
] on a very slippery slope. By the time people sit up and take
] notice this will have snowballed into a huge problem.

Its like, when your on the playground, and someone makes fun of you, people react in two different ways. People who are weak take it personally. They get angry and fight back, which is exactly what the bully wants. People who are strong aren't bothered by it. They have enough self esteem that they can take it.

This amendment is a referenda on our nation's self esteem. We don't have the backbone to take an affront. Its a sign of significant weakness.

] Its like, when your on the playground, and someone makes fun
] of you, people react in two different ways. People who are
] weak take it personally. They get angry and fight back, which
] is exactly what the bully wants. People who are strong aren't
] bothered by it. They have enough self esteem that they can
] take it.
]
] This amendment is a referenda on our nation's self esteem. We
] don't have the backbone to take an affront. Its a sign of
] significant weakness.

This is an excellent analogy!!

Burning a flag is one of the most serious
] commentaries we can make about the activity of our government.
] I thought the ability to stand up and say, categorically, "My
] government is wrong." was somehow important to the American
] ideal.

This is an extremely important point. In the past, the greatest advantage of living in the US was the freedom to stand up and voice your opinion no matter what it may be. Correct me if I'm wrong but this ideal is what our country was founded on. At the present time it seems that if your opinion does not closely coincide with the powers that be then you are in trouble.

The PROBLEM is that the PEOPLE don't give a shit. They can't think past dinner. Seems to me like a larger percentage our our population is only concerned with their own comfort, and simply use any issue that they can feel self-righteous about as a chest pounding "I DO TOO CARE" comeback for those of us that would condemn them for their intellectual laziness.

Burning a flag is one of the most serious
] commentaries we can make about the activity of our government.
] I thought the ability to stand up and say, categorically, "My
] government is wrong." was somehow important to the American
] ideal.

This is an extremely important point. In the past, the greatest advantage of living in the US was the freedom to stand up and voice your opinion no matter what it may be. Correct me if I'm wrong but this ideal is what our country was founded on. At the present time it seems that if your opinion does not closely coincide with the powers that be then you are in trouble.

k wrote:
] ] Amendment supporters contend the flag deserves special
] ] protection as an important national symbol, while
] ] opponents, including Kerry, have argued that flag
] ] desecration can be punished under criminal statutes
] ] without tampering with the Constitution.
]
] [ This is ridiculous. Why should any of this shit be
] *illegal* in the first fucking place? What country is this,
] honestly? Burning a flag is one of the most serious
] commentaries we can make about the activity of our government.
] I thought the ability to stand up and say, categorically, "My
] government is wrong." was somehow important to the American
] ideal.
]
] How is it that people so easily miss the point. These people
] don't respect the ideal the flag represents. It is an
] important symbol, but holding up as something it's not is just
] wrong. It reduces the flag to a marketing tool, a button or a
] poster, a fucking blind to hide all the greed and
] authoritarianism behind. That's a desecration. 150 million
] tattered nylon flags or faded vinyl stickers on SUV's driven
] by thoughtless drones who think patriotism has more to do with
] prominently displaying the symbol than living the ideal.
] That's a desecration. Proposing this measure now,
] purposefully exploiting that false patriotism and jingoistic
] war mentality... unrepentantly using the symbol for private
] gain... it's ugly. It's a desecration.
]
] A certain amount of flag waving is unavoidable, of course, on
] both sides, but this focus on the object itself just continues
] to baffle me. -k]

First thing Hitler did was make destruction of the flag a crime. They throw this stupid issue around all the time. It's a waste of time and a smokescreen and barely deserves being commented upon. Stick to real issues that lie behind this. By the way, flag-burning doesn't equate social commentary. It merely enrages people who lead normal lives and feel a bit patriotic. They are not evil and do not need further baiting by anyone to further turn them against what they already view as a demonic liberal presence in the US. Why not change your tactics to be inclusive instead of divisive? A paragraph, well-worded and cogent, is more valuable than a fucked up shithead burning a flag. Besides, arson is already illegal, so burning the flag is by proxy, unless you are doing it on your own property. So, save us the bullshit, k, and think for a change.

k wrote:
] ] Amendment supporters contend the flag deserves special
] ] protection as an important national symbol, while
] ] opponents, including Kerry, have argued that flag
] ] desecration can be punished under criminal statutes
] ] without tampering with the Constitution.
]
] [ This is ridiculous. Why should any of this shit be
] *illegal* in the first fucking place? What country is this,
] honestly? Burning a flag is one of the most serious
] commentaries we can make about the activity of our government.
] I thought the ability to stand up and say, categorically, "My
] government is wrong." was somehow important to the American
] ideal.
]
] How is it that people so easily miss the point. These people
] don't respect the ideal the flag represents. It is an
] important symbol, but holding up as something it's not is just
] wrong. It reduces the flag to a marketing tool, a button or a
] poster, a fucking blind to hide all the greed and
] authoritarianism behind. That's a desecration. 150 million
] tattered nylon flags or faded vinyl stickers on SUV's driven
] by thoughtless drones who think patriotism has more to do with
] prominently displaying the symbol than living the ideal.
] That's a desecration. Proposing this measure now,
] purposefully exploiting that false patriotism and jingoistic
] war mentality... unrepentantly using the symbol for private
] gain... it's ugly. It's a desecration.
]
] A certain amount of flag waving is unavoidable, of course, on
] both sides, but this focus on the object itself just continues
] to baffle me. -k]

This is going back quite a ways, but as a Cub Scout I learned the proper way to despose of a damaged or tattered flag was to, well, burn it... So now it's appropriate to send it to the landfill?

Mike the Usurper wrote:
] k wrote:
] This is going back quite a ways, but as a Cub Scout I learned
] the proper way to despose of a damaged or tattered flag was
] to, well, burn it... So now it's appropriate to send it to
] the landfill?

[ Yeah, that's true, but there's some formality involved in that process as well. Just as there's a formal method for folding it. I learned that in Boy Scouts too, but it's not something I think most non-military people do regularly. Nor taking it in from the rain, or not letting it touch the ground, etc. As with anything, a certain amount of respect is a good thing, but it's almost religious with some people... that's just crazy. -k]