ryan is the supernicety wrote:
] ] n Arabic TV news network said Friday that American
] ] hostage Paul Johnson Jr. has been beheaded by his Saudi
] ] captors.
]
] Totally preposterous. I suppose we now know the method. It
] doesn't matter what happened with Nick Berg, this is now the
] method of choice. Dear god help us. I just don't understand
] the thought-- how can you not have good at the very base of
] your being?

Of course this is an appalling act against an individual. Those affected deserve our sympathy and condolences.

But what makes you think that these people do not have good at the very base of their being?

I grew up in a time when a standard B movie would show "Cowboys and Indians" at war. The good guys, the Cowboys, heroically fighting the evildoers - the Indians. Of course the Indians did appalling things, such as scalp the poor captured cowboy, and no doubt did unspeakable things to his woman. How could they not have good at the very base of their being? Savages, right?

I grew up and came to understand that the native American Indian had been dispossessed, murdered, raped, tortured, abused, imprisoned and humiliated by colonial occupiers seeking to better themselves on the natural resources of another peoples land. Their culture destroyed, their people herded into "reservations". For hundreds of years, the colonial occupiers fed this image of the "savage Red Indian" to the people as an "evildoer", less than human with his cruel rituals and barbaric religion.

Open your eyes.

In the end, history teaches us that we learn nothing from history.

oaknet wrote:
] But what makes you think that these people do not have good at
] the very base of their being?

[ I don't think your analogy quite fits in this case. Those responsible here *did* behead someone, if the reports are true, and certainly we have evidence that those who killed Mr. Berg *did* behead him. Those people, by which i don't imply a race or ethinicity or nationality, but the guys who stood there, or wielded the knife, do not have good at the base of their being. Sorry, i don't believe you can behead a man, particularly a civilian, and still claim you're generally a good guy. War is one thing, and it's bad enough... selecting a target as an icon, as a symbol, and not based on their specific actions against you is *especially* wrong.

Now, the trap you portray is real, by which i mean taking a specific act, or a particular viewpoint of one, and applying it over broadly to a large class of people. I still argue that scalping a man alive isn't a real "good" thing to do, as much as I identify with the rage and consuming resentment felt by dispossessed native americans. Obviously the broad application of "savage" was wrong... if anything the europeans were far more savage in their exploitation and presupposed superiority. Obviously, we have a history of insensitivity to alternative ways of being. But I'll continue to be insensitive, if that's the word, to any person who thinks beheading or scalping or disappearing arbitrary people is an acceptible behavior.

We want to avoid misapplying our outrage to people who have nothing directly to do with it. This is something that is historically common, of course, ignorance breeding broad hate. That's not what the parent was indicating though, i'm sure. Those individuals may have been acting to further a good cause, which i won't comment on, but the act itself was not good, and they themselves can't claim to be so, regardless of their supposed intentions. As I heard once in a song, "You can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding." -k]

k wrote:
] oaknet wrote:
] ] But what makes you think that these people do not have good
] at
] ] the very base of their being?
]
] [ I don't think your analogy quite fits in this case. Those
] responsible here *did* behead someone, if the reports are
] true, and certainly we have evidence that those who killed Mr.
] Berg *did* behead him. Those people, by which i don't imply a
] race or ethinicity or nationality, but the guys who stood
] there, or wielded the knife, do not have good at the base of
] their being. Sorry, i don't believe you can behead a man,
] particularly a civilian, and still claim you're generally a
] good guy. War is one thing, and it's bad enough... selecting
] a target as an icon, as a symbol, and not based on their
] specific actions against you is *especially* wrong.

I am inclined to agree. And on that very basis bombing Iraqi cities filled with innocent civilians was morally unacceptable. Or was it somehow more acceptable because we didn't video each innocent "collatoral" man, woman and child's execution under US/UK fire?

"Collatoral" damage is the West's way of excusing itself for the deaths of thousands of innocents who have been targeted no less than the poor unfortunates from American now in Iraq. As humans we take sides, we make judgements, but we needn't be blinded to the ambiguous truth of our own horror. If we can bomb a marketplace or a wedding and retain our moral base, then why not these other murderers?

Remember that Biblical story about motes and beams?

] As I heard once in a song, "You
] can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
] -k]

Who is to say that you are not the one dancing with the Devil but calling him by his other name, the Angel of Light? The Devil has many names and many faces, and loves nothing better than a Good Cause ...

I deplore the murder of all individuals, as I deplore this war and the violence inherent in it. But unlike some, I don't believe that there are good murders of innocents and bad murders of innocents.

By the way, what are the statistics for "collatoral" Iraqi war deaths caused by anonymous men from the US/UK?

What do you mean, there aren't any... ?

oaknet wrote:
] I am inclined to agree. And on that very basis bombing Iraqi
] cities filled with innocent civilians was morally
] unacceptable. Or was it somehow more acceptable because we
] didn't video each innocent "collatoral" man, woman and child's
] execution under US/UK fire?

[ Hear hear. That's among the reasons i opposed the war, because wars are atrocities, probably in all cases, so the net postive outcomes better be obvious and overwhelming. Such conditions might not exist, which is a solid anti-war stance, but anyway, they clearly didn't exist in this case. All the reasons boiled down to "Saddam is a dick." ]

] If we can
] bomb a marketplace or a wedding and retain our moral base,
] then why not these other murderers?

[ Can't. Those things are wrong. "We" as a nation, have lost a lot of our moral standing. "We" as individuals, can only be responsible as far as out influence and our voice. If you believe US imperialism is a-ok, then yeah, you're more culpable for the atrocities than someone who forsaw the bullshit and opposed the war on that priniciple. Whatever, it's a big argument, but you're basically right. Wars suck, and the winners write the accounts of it. That's changing with increased media presence... someday maybe accountability will be inherent. -k]

k wrote:
] oaknet wrote:
] ] I am inclined to agree. And on that very basis bombing Iraqi
]
] ] cities filled with innocent civilians was morally
] ] unacceptable. Or was it somehow more acceptable because we
] ] didn't video each innocent "collatoral" man, woman and
] child's
] ] execution under US/UK fire?
]
] [ Hear hear. That's among the reasons i opposed the war,
] because wars are atrocities, probably in all cases, so the net
] postive outcomes better be obvious and overwhelming. Such
] conditions might not exist, which is a solid anti-war stance,
] but anyway, they clearly didn't exist in this case. All the
] reasons boiled down to "Saddam is a dick." ]
]
] ] If we can
] ] bomb a marketplace or a wedding and retain our moral base,
] ] then why not these other murderers?
]
] [ Can't. Those things are wrong. "We" as a nation, have lost
] a lot of our moral standing. "We" as individuals, can only be
] responsible as far as out influence and our voice. If you
] believe US imperialism is a-ok, then yeah, you're more
] culpable for the atrocities than someone who forsaw the
] bullshit and opposed the war on that priniciple. Whatever,
] it's a big argument, but you're basically right. Wars suck,
] and the winners write the accounts of it. That's changing
] with increased media presence... someday maybe accountability
] will be inherent. -k]

Ryan: k, thanks for writing my argument for me. it sures does help that we have known each other for so long. Botton line, I can't kill people. I understand the purpose of defense, but I myself can hardly imagine the situation within which I could even do it. Perhaps that makes me weak, but I respect life too much. I'm still working on the rationalization for me to not be a vegetarian, tho.

Decius wrote:
] ] An Arabic TV news network said Friday that American
] ] hostage Paul Johnson Jr. has been beheaded by his Saudi
] ] captors.
]
] Echoing Nick's comments, I was afraid that this would happen.
] Saudi Arabia is obviously not going to release 1000 militants.
] The demands were simply used to attract attention.
]
] My condolences to the Johnson family.

Damn this sux!! my heart goes out to his family, There are no words to describe what they are feeling right now :(

Elonka wrote:
] ] An Arabic TV news network said Friday that American
] ] hostage Paul Johnson Jr. has been beheaded by his Saudi
] ] captors.
]
] (deep sigh)
]
] Yet another death for my family. My grandfather, my uncle,
] and two family friends all within a few months. My head
] reels. My heart grieves.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

I've just been listening to a close friend of Paul who worked with him in Saudi. He said that he has send an email to the immediate family using Pauls' personal email address, and hopes that they can somehow read it. If you know the immediate family and can pass that information on, then I am sure that Tony (Paul's friend) will be grateful.

As you may not hear the broadcast, I will add what Tony said about today's events:

First, that his sympathies went out to Paul's family in this terrible time.

Next, that Paul's killers were cowards, not brave men, and must know this.

Finally, that to prevent such things happening again, the Saudi Royal Family must introduce democracy, (he emphasised Saudi democracy, not American democracy) to undermine the efforts of terrorists in that country.

There is also an unconfirmed report on the BBC that 3 men have been killed or captured trying to dispose of Paul's body. Let's hope that people of good faith will work for an end to all the madness and the killing.

Best wishes.