k wrote:
] [ Interesting commentary on what i've taken to calling the
] "Torture is OK!" report... -k]

There has been a lot of discussion of this report; the quotation underlined by this and other commentators being the focal point of a great deal of hand wringing. The thing is that this is a lawyer providing recommendations. He has essentially been asked "how can we do this and keep it legal" and he is throwing out everything that he can think of. The lawyer is obviously wrong on this point. I don't really fault him. I've been wrong professionally before. Everyone has. If only all of our work could be subjected to the kind of peer review he is getting here.

The question at hand is whether or not the President followed through on this recommendation. If the answer is yes, then we have a fairly significant bone to pick with the Whitehouse. If the answer is no, then there really isn't a story hear, other then the one initially suggested, which is that the administration actually did ask a lawyer to brainstorm on ways that they could torture people legally.

There is substance to that latter issue. We know that we've been employing torture, not just at Abu Gharib, but all over the place. I'm reminded of that spook who testified in Congress that "Its very important that the American people understand this. After 9/11 the gloves came off."

The gloves came off. This is what they mean. Trial baloons where sent up about this in 2001 and not widely accepted, but they went forward here anyway. There has been a lot of discussion about the right/wrong/value/legality of this versus other methods that we typically employ.

Thats the discussion I think we really ought to be having. Should we torture people? Is it effective? Does it save lives? Its not a simple question.

Decius wrote:
] We know that we've
] been employing torture, not just at Abu Gharib, but all over
] the place. I'm reminded of that spook who testified in
] Congress that "It's very important that the American people
] understand this. After 9/11 the gloves came off."
]
] The gloves came off. This is what they mean.
]
] That's the discussion I think we really ought to be having.
] Should we torture people? Is it effective? Does it save lives?
] It's not a simple question.

His name is Cofer Black, and this is exactly what he meant.

I recommend the Mark Bowden article in Atlantic Monthly. I also recommend the second Seymour Hersh article after Abu Ghraib, about "COPPER GREEN". You can also read the last chapter of "Why America Slept." There is plenty of material out there to consider.

If, by "discussion", you mean a public discourse on the subject, good luck. Your government may not be particularly interested in your opinions on the matter.

Jeremy wrote:
] I recommend the Mark Bowden article in Atlantic Monthly.

I recall it, but thank you for re-referencing it. Others may have missed it.

] also recommend the second Seymour Hersh article after Abu
] Ghraib, about "COPPER GREEN".

I skipped that one. I'm linking a Wikipedia article here that includes it along with the DoD's official reply.

hrm...

“We’re giving the world a ready-made excuse to ignore the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld has lowered the bar.”

Do you recall in the late nineties a series of executions in Texas of foreign defendants who were not afforded access to their consulates?

] If, by "discussion", you mean a public discourse on the
] subject, good luck. Your government may not be particularly
] interested in your opinions on the matter.

Are they particularly interested in my opinions on any matter?

Its occurred to me recently that I spend an aweful lot of time, with this website, reading, and thinking, and writing about current events. I know way more about what is going on in the world then almost anyone that I know who isn't also participating in this thing. I guess its important to me, post 9/11, to have a clue. I don't want to be caught off guard again. I don't want to be surprised when world events take an important turn.

But what purpose does all of this really serve? What am I accomplishing here? I'm not in a position to do anything with all the information I'm taking in, nor is this information helping me get anywhere where it might be useful. Am I just entertaining myself? Is this intellectual masturbation?

COPPER GREEN RE: Talking Points Memo